Shipp
Aluminum
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2022
- Location
- Northern California
What do you mean by "clean sheet"?
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End Of An Era in American Manufacturing---The last 747
- Thread starter standardparts
- Start date
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standardparts
Diamond
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2019
KC-10 (DC-10) air tanker a couple hundred(?) in service and almost 400 KC-135 (707 ) tankers still flying.
B767 & B777 two great wide bodies from Boeing.
A clean sheet design is one that isn't directly derived from a previous design. Starting with a blank piece of paper, as it were.
For example, a 737 Max 10 is a new airplane, but it was more-or-less derived from the 737 lineage. An A-380 was a clean sheet design, as was the 777.
So someone might make a freighter version of the A380, or make a super guppy out of an old 747, or something like that. But nobody is going to start with basic design principles and end up with a four engined aircraft anymore.
I could be wrong, of course, but it won't be a tube-and-pods subsonic airliner.
Shipp
Aluminum
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2022
- Location
- Northern California
Thank you sir
gustafson
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2002
- Location
- People's Republic
As mentioned above, the L1011 and DC10 came out virtually the same time and all were 2 aisle widebody planes. So it was what people were doing at that time.
EmanuelGoldstein
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2018
Incorrect. DC-10 and L 1011 came out several years later, *in response to* the 747. (They were also pretty much the same plane, altho Lockheed's was better built).
This is similar to pony cars. Mustang created the market, or at least discovered it, then camaro and barracuda and challenger followed behind. "Everyone" was *not* "making wide-body jets" at that time. There was, in fact, a great deal of resistance to the idea.
standardparts
Diamond
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2019
"you could be assured that as soon as lines were placed on paper, someone would be suggesting "move this there"....Yep - when I was in the DO for new instruments this was the phrase - "lets get a clean sheet of paper on the board".
What was amazing was no one would ever comment on concept though....no "helping out".
BUT, you could be assured that as soon as lines were placed on paper, someone would be suggesting "move this there"....
Yeah...so much they made a movie about it:
EmanuelGoldstein
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2018
gustafson
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2002
- Location
- People's Republic
They may have been a response to the 747 but they were all designed before the first 747 ever flew. 747 first flight 2/69 L1011 11/70. DC10 8/70
Yes 747 was first, but yes everyone was building wide bodies
EmanuelGoldstein
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2018
For those who are challenged by dates, that's two fucking years. OF COURSE after word got out that PanAm and Boeing were building a monster, the competition had to respond. Absolutely no, "everyone" was damn well NOT building widebodies at the same time.
In fact, PanAm had been running DC's for years, including the rare DC-2.5, so I'd be shocked if Mr Trippe hadn't proposed it to Douglas as well.
Fact remains that it was J Trippe who deserves credit (or blame, depending on your viewpoint) for this development.
bull fornicating feces
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triumph406
Titanium
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
- Location
- ca
Best job (as a contractor) I ever had was working at the McD Wind Tunnel group (Long Beach) on the MD-12 which was going to be a challenger to the 747. Was there maybe 9 months. Great place to work.
en.wikipedia.org
One highlight was watching the C-17's first flight from the 3rd floor library of building 36. The lowlight was when they cancelled the MD-12, and I had to go back to the company who had loaned me out on contract
Ended that day playing pool in Joe Jost's in Long Beach. Well known for their pickled Eggs.
McDonnell Douglas MD-12 - Wikipedia
One highlight was watching the C-17's first flight from the 3rd floor library of building 36. The lowlight was when they cancelled the MD-12, and I had to go back to the company who had loaned me out on contract
Ended that day playing pool in Joe Jost's in Long Beach. Well known for their pickled Eggs.
Trueturning
Diamond
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2019
I like pickled eggs yet they are definately not really on my diet. I do enjoy eggs though as a cheating venture rarely.Best job (as a contractor) I ever had was working at the McD Wind Tunnel group (Long Beach) on the MD-12 which was going to be a challenger to the 747. Was there maybe 9 months. Great place to work.
McDonnell Douglas MD-12 - Wikipedia
One highlight was watching the C-17's first flight from the 3rd floor library of building 36. The lowlight was when they cancelled the MD-12, and I had to go back to the company who had loaned me out on contract
Ended that day playing pool in Joe Jost's in Long Beach. Well known for their pickled Eggs.
gustafson
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2002
- Location
- People's Republic
shouldn't talk about yourself that way
Superbowl
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2020
Back in the late 1970's when air travel was still regulated and Airlines had to fly their schedule, I flew from Seattle to DC on a 747 with only two other passengers. They put us all in first class. There were more stewardess that passengers on board. Unfortunately the upstairs cabin was closed, but I sneaked up the spiral stairs and took a look around. That was the only time I ever got into an upper cabin.
Shipp
Aluminum
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2022
- Location
- Northern California
No it's fine, he really likes that particular bull
EmanuelGoldstein
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2018
yeah, when the facts are staring you in the face and they say you're full of shit, go for the cute little slurs. You're both adorable.
gustafson
Diamond
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- Sep 4, 2002
- Location
- People's Republic
Wait who started with the cute little slurs?
And who used the Mustang comparison?
Mustang released 1964
Vehicle design cycle circa 1964: 3 years
Camaro released 1967
Those jets were in final design before the first 747 ever flew.
Not after it was a success
747 , first, best, biggest, but not only
And who used the Mustang comparison?
Mustang released 1964
Vehicle design cycle circa 1964: 3 years
Camaro released 1967
Those jets were in final design before the first 747 ever flew.
Not after it was a success
747 , first, best, biggest, but not only
EmanuelGoldstein
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2018
Oh stick it. Pan Am is the one who should get credit (or blame, actually the 747 was never as profitable as they hoped and is much more useful as a freighter - the Air China -7's were actually 1/3 freighters, one time a fellow pass asked me "want to see something ?" -- in the rear of the plane were 9 horses he was bringing to bei jing
), the FACT is that the risk pushed Boeing to the breaking point, they never would have done it on their own, the "existing designs" were for military use which is a whole different ballgame and no, "everybody" was NOT "building widebodies at the time." That's ignorant crap. PanAm and Boeing took a huge risk pioneering the idea. Good for both of them, but I hate seeing PanAm get the short end of the credit. It was their vision.
Trueturning
Diamond
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2019
I rode on one a couple of times it was ok yet it rattled and made more noise than a Boeing.Now...If Airbus will make a plane with a Martini bar, and does barrel rolls with a full passenger load onboard....
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