We need a lot more of this in the US; what is your state doing?

Scottl · Nov 30, 2022

jim rozen said:
"you just can't see the other side of any debate..."

You're not 'debating,' you're simply doing the monotonus one-line knee jerk response. OOOh, my MONEY.

That response reminds me of the former Massachusetts governor who complained that people were "voting with their wallets" when a referendum issue failed. As one of the local talk show hosts said "Yes Gov, OUR wallets not yours".

Taxpayers have every right to question how their money is spent.

Scottl · Nov 30, 2022

When I was in Junior High School all boys had shop class. They split them into four groups and rotated them so each got a few months in printing technology, drafting technology, machine shop and wood shop. In those less enlightened days the girls had home economics classes in cooking, sewing and other "housewife" stuff.

Alloy Mcgraw · Nov 30, 2022

dcsipo said:
You confuse me. What right Ahold Delhaize has to make money from the same kid at Stop&Shop? The state invests for the expected tax revenue.

I'm sure I do confuse you...

If I have to explain the difference between your example and mine I fear we may get no where.

Garwood · Nov 30, 2022

The next town over started a big program like this backed by a few big CNC job shops. They got a commissioner elected who supports the program with the idea that the high school kids would just be doing all the ag and logging work the big shops don't want.

I had a meeting with that commissioner and explained I own the small shop that does all that work for the farmers and loggers. I was happy about the program, but not real happy about the work they were going after.

I figure they'll get all the cheapskate farmers so no loss, but the marketing for the program did erk me a little bit.

Ries · Dec 1, 2022

Where I live, there are still some shop classes.
But, in general, school budgets per student are very tight, as all costs are far higher than 1970, when I was in high school.
So most high schools near me have limited programs- usually a cnc router, which allows them to teach a lot with one relatively cheap machine.
But here, we have a program called "Running Start", where every high school student can take classes at community colleges in their junior and senior years.
Obviously, this is limited by distance to nearest community college- which sometimes makes it impossible, but for a very large percentage of the high schools in my state, this works well.
So, my kids, who in total attended 3 different high schools, could, at any of them, take welding classes in a shop with 2 dozen brand new welding machines, big bandsaws, ironworker, shear, and brake, along with 3 instructors who taugnt nothing but welding, all day every day.
This, to my mind, is far superior to the football coach who was self taught at stick welding.
Similarly, there is a CC with 3 or 4 million dollars worth of CNC equipment, and its quite possible for a kid to graduate high school with a years college credit in Manufacturing Technology.
These schools require actual internship time with a real company to get your 2 year AA degree, but dont actually run companies themselves.
But they do train the students to the needs of the local companies, and, as a result, kids get hired.
I have employed probably 2 dozen students from the three schools near me, over the years.
They also can take marine diesel repair, or carbon fiber fabrication technology, while in high school. Since we have over 2 dozen boatbuilders in my area, ranging up to one with 600 employees that builds ships up to around 300', these students, again, get jobs.
The schools do community projects, where the students dont get paid, and fundraising pays for materials, too- things like signs for communities, bike racks, or street furniture for small towns.

nopoint · Dec 1, 2022

I see this from the other side of the fence, having been in education for almost 20 years. I teach Technology Education, Shop, what ever you want to call it. There are some great programs out there doing great things along with some embarrassments for a variety of reasons. I have always worked in small schools so it is my responsibility to cover diverse topics CAD, Graphic design, small engines, welding, machining, cnc, construction, woodworking, engineering, even forestry a few times. The most different subjects/ classes I have ever had during a school year was 13. It's hard to be good at all of these things. My goal is to introduce students to subjects enough that they will understand if it's something that they want to pursue. I have learned lots from this site and from local business and industry. College does not prepare teachers for these diverse course loads. Many of the people I went to college with have gotten into industry and left teaching. Last spring there where 58 open Tech Ed Teaching jobs in The state of Wisconsin. I personally switched to a different school to be closer to home, they have been unable to fill the position that I left. Many programs are closing due to lacking qualified staff. The previous mention of budgets are spot on. At my last job I was able to add about $100,000 of technology upgrades, cnc equipment etc. but as a teacher I had to pursue all that funding from outside sources etc. The new school is stuck way back in time, nothing has been updated in years. So I either slog along teaching "technology" with broken junk or spend my free time trying to convince local business to make donations and writing grants. Trying to squeeze money out of the school district is hard, school funding at least in Wisconsin is a mess. Those of you that help support your local school may not realize how a small bit of help can really make a difference. Lots of ways to be supportive: be a supportive voice in the community, provide guidance with technical problems, donate stock, donate broken examples to dissect, outdated tooling, host field trips, be a guest speaker, support youth apprentice program. Another thing that I recently realized as I started all over building business connections is that it can be very hard to get connected with the correct person at larger industry. Reach out to local schools. Local industry has told me repeatedly their most dependable employees are ones that are from the area. They are the ones that have a tendency to stay on for the long haul and grow with the business! Thanks for helping your local school, it really does matter!

jim rozen · Dec 1, 2022

"What right does the state have to take money from the kid who bags groceries down the road and give it to me?" (A. Mg.)

What right does the state have to take money from the kid, and use it pave your road?
What right does the state have to take money from the kid, and use it to pay for teachers (kid has no childeren in the school...)

Some of you are missing the point of how taxes actually work. No you can't have a pony or a unicorn, and no you can't say exactly whati , and what not, your tax money is used for.

standardparts · Dec 1, 2022

nopoint said:
I see this from the other side of the fence, having been in education for almost 20 years. I teach Technology Education, Shop, what ever you want to call it. There are some great programs out there doing great things along with some embarrassments for a variety of reasons. I have always worked in small schools so it is my responsibility to cover diverse topics CAD, Graphic design, small engines, welding, machining, cnc, construction, woodworking, engineering, even forestry a few times. The most different subjects/ classes I have ever had during a school year was 13. It's hard to be good at all of these things. My goal is to introduce students to subjects enough that they will understand if it's something that they want to pursue. I have learned lots from this site and from local business and industry. College does not prepare teachers for these diverse course loads. Many of the people I went to college with have gotten into industry and left teaching. Last spring there where 58 open Tech Ed Teaching jobs in The state of Wisconsin. I personally switched to a different school to be closer to home, they have been unable to fill the position that I left. Many programs are closing due to lacking qualified staff. The previous mention of budgets are spot on. At my last job I was able to add about $100,000 of technology upgrades, cnc equipment etc. but as a teacher I had to pursue all that funding from outside sources etc. The new school is stuck way back in time, nothing has been updated in years. So I either slog along teaching "technology" with broken junk or spend my free time trying to convince local business to make donations and writing grants. Trying to squeeze money out of the school district is hard, school funding at least in Wisconsin is a mess. Those of you that help support your local school may not realize how a small bit of help can really make a difference. Lots of ways to be supportive: be a supportive voice in the community, provide guidance with technical problems, donate stock, donate broken examples to dissect, outdated tooling, host field trips, be a guest speaker, support youth apprentice program. Another thing that I recently realized as I started all over building business connections is that it can be very hard to get connected with the correct person at larger industry. Reach out to local schools. Local industry has told me repeatedly their most dependable employees are ones that are from the area. They are the ones that have a tendency to stay on for the long haul and grow with the business! Thanks for helping your local school, it really does matter!

Well look at the upside...With 20 years in, and if your in the WRS, your likely in really good shape, especially if you have been banking vacation and sick leave.
But yeah....know people who deal with the daily frustrations.

BoxcarPete · Dec 1, 2022

jim rozen said:
"What right does the state have to take money from the kid who bags groceries down the road and give it to me?" (A. Mg.)

What right does the state have to take money from the kid, and use it pave your road?
What right does the state have to take money from the kid, and use it to pay for teachers (kid has no childeren in the school...)

Some of you are missing the point of how taxes actually work. No you can't have a pony or a unicorn, and no you can't say exactly whati , and what not, your tax money is used for.

Jim, you didn't even come close to answering the question. Fact is, some of us don't take every gov't expenditure as axiomatic, and like to wonder on a case-by-case basis if we really do have the right to take from people and spend it on something else.

Garwood · Dec 1, 2022

nopoint said:
I see this from the other side of the fence, having been in education for almost 20 years. I teach Technology Education, Shop, what ever you want to call it. There are some great programs out there doing great things along with some embarrassments for a variety of reasons. I have always worked in small schools so it is my responsibility to cover diverse topics CAD, Graphic design, small engines, welding, machining, cnc, construction, woodworking, engineering, even forestry a few times. The most different subjects/ classes I have ever had during a school year was 13. It's hard to be good at all of these things. My goal is to introduce students to subjects enough that they will understand if it's something that they want to pursue. I have learned lots from this site and from local business and industry. College does not prepare teachers for these diverse course loads. Many of the people I went to college with have gotten into industry and left teaching. Last spring there where 58 open Tech Ed Teaching jobs in The state of Wisconsin. I personally switched to a different school to be closer to home, they have been unable to fill the position that I left. Many programs are closing due to lacking qualified staff. The previous mention of budgets are spot on. At my last job I was able to add about $100,000 of technology upgrades, cnc equipment etc. but as a teacher I had to pursue all that funding from outside sources etc. The new school is stuck way back in time, nothing has been updated in years. So I either slog along teaching "technology" with broken junk or spend my free time trying to convince local business to make donations and writing grants. Trying to squeeze money out of the school district is hard, school funding at least in Wisconsin is a mess. Those of you that help support your local school may not realize how a small bit of help can really make a difference. Lots of ways to be supportive: be a supportive voice in the community, provide guidance with technical problems, donate stock, donate broken examples to dissect, outdated tooling, host field trips, be a guest speaker, support youth apprentice program. Another thing that I recently realized as I started all over building business connections is that it can be very hard to get connected with the correct person at larger industry. Reach out to local schools. Local industry has told me repeatedly their most dependable employees are ones that are from the area. They are the ones that have a tendency to stay on for the long haul and grow with the business! Thanks for helping your local school, it really does matter!

If you don't mind sharing, What does a shop teacher's salary currently look like?

jaguar36 · Dec 1, 2022

Garwood said:
If you don't mind sharing, What does a shop teacher's salary currently look like?

Currently salary of the shop teacher at the school I went to in suburban NJ is $76,500.

nopoint · Dec 1, 2022

Salaries are up in the "hard to fill" positions. Historically salaries where controlled by a scale with no leeway. I probably make more than the English teacher but there have been years that pounding nails during summer vacation and on weekends made more money than teaching.... Factor in insurance that changes things. Although like everywhere they continue to chip away at coverages etc. I find the work rewarding, the part where I get to help students prepare for life! The behind the scenes bs, funding etc. can be frustrating. Well occasionally a class of clowns can be frustrating too, generally if pushed students strive to learn. They just need the opportunity!

Garwood · Dec 1, 2022

jaguar36 said:
Currently salary of the shop teacher at the school I went to in suburban NJ is $76,500.

That's not bad money for 9 months of work if good health insurance is included in that.

I could fathom being a good metalshop teacher for a salary like that if I had a side gig that I worked simultaneously.

At the same time though it seems like the folks in their 20's that are suited for this kind of work often do gravitate into it and excel even if they didn't have a high school program to support it. I've met a few in their early 20's recently that are sharp and learned quick and they had zero education other than on the job starting as a button pusher or handle cranker.

I was lucky to have a good metalshop program and teacher at my high school. I graduated in 2001 and the program was scrapped in 2002 when the teacher retired.

Thing is though, I look back on what I learned and it wasn't really that much for 4 years. I got the basics of a lot of things, but I learned how to be a machinist in the real world which was quite a bit different from a couple dozen Bridgeports and Clausing lathes the school had. I think about that sometimes- How the teacher tried to prepare kids, but he didn't really know what the technological state of manufacturing was. There were a lot of things that were represented to us as being cutting edge while in reality they had been commonplace in industry for decades by that time.

If I were to envision a metalshop program for high school kids today it would look nothing like what I had.

macgyver · Dec 2, 2022

A teacher that lives close to my shop reached out to me this past summer and I went to visit her program, she teaches all the tech/shop classes except woodshop for 7-12 grade. She has a pretty cool setup with some cool stuff, the only thing commercial grade is a cnc plasma and her screen printers, but the reset is still good for what she needs. She was trying to get me to teach the wood shop class when he retires. To be honest, I can't forsee anyone convincing me to even seriously think about it. My wife and her mother both teach and I even got a handful of classes in a Masters program with the intent to teach tech content before I realized that education is not for me. It sounds good and looks decent on paper, but the reality is that it is Not actually a good job. Benefits are not what they should be, around here the districts are only paying app 14-20% of your insurance and they are not matching any retirement or anything like that. It's just like working for a small mom and pop shop with no benefits or money to buy tools or machines and getting asked to use your truck to go pick up material and make deliveries, but hey, we'll get you a Starbucks gift card for $10 once a year...

As Garwood mentioned, most people think that it is a 9 month per year job, which that is all you get paid for, but the reality now is that your are expected to be in the mindset and willing to do training/PD, work on your classroom and a whole host of other things on your "time off" during summer etc. There really isn't any off the clock time during the school year either, my wife gets emails, calls, texts etc at all hours with the expectation that she will address them quickly. Yes, you can sometimes say no, but eventually you will be worn down and bullied into doing it because it just makes life harder if you don't. Teaching is very similar to a religious position like a Nun or Pastor/Minister, the teacher feels called to do it for reasons that are hard to put on paper, and guess what, the public and admin take advantage of that and use them up and throw them in the trash when they can't take it anymore.

Nopoint mentioned how many subjects he has to teach and that is a big deal. Any of these specific content areas are all on the teacher themselves to invest time and usually their money into if they want to learn about it. Say a program wants a cnc, most of the time the money is barely enough for the machine itself, so that means no training, no tools, no professional setup, no books, sometimes even no wire and conduit to hook the thing up. This is also happening during the time the teacher is supposed to be teaching, so something gets put on the back burner and it is usually the new machine. Or best case the teacher gets trained on it but then doesn't have the time to implement it and put it in the coursework and they forget what they were trained on and they hit a speed bump that stops any momentum they had and it gets even harder to try and use it. I used to get frustrated that some of my teachers didn't have the expertise on certain things I thought they should, but I'll admit it was from ignorance on my part on what they actually have to do.

I think looking to public schools to teach shop classes is expecting too much, I think it will have to come from industry to push it and make it better. It is really nice when it does happen, but putting it all on the teacher is too much.

dcsipo · Dec 2, 2022

macgyver said:
A teacher that lives close to my shop reached out to me this past summer and I went to visit her program, she teaches all the tech/shop classes except woodshop for 7-12 grade. She has a pretty cool setup with some cool stuff, the only thing commercial grade is a cnc plasma and her screen printers, but the reset is still good for what she needs. She was trying to get me to teach the wood shop class when he retires. To be honest, I can't forsee anyone convincing me to even seriously think about it. My wife and her mother both teach and I even got a handful of classes in a Masters program with the intent to teach tech content before I realized that education is not for me. It sounds good and looks decent on paper, but the reality is that it is Not actually a good job. Benefits are not what they should be, around here the districts are only paying app 14-20% of your insurance and they are not matching any retirement or anything like that. It's just like working for a small mom and pop shop with no benefits or money to buy tools or machines and getting asked to use your truck to go pick up material and make deliveries, but hey, we'll get you a Starbucks gift card for $10 once a year...

As Garwood mentioned, most people think that it is a 9 month per year job, which that is all you get paid for, but the reality now is that your are expected to be in the mindset and willing to do training/PD, work on your classroom and a whole host of other things on your "time off" during summer etc. There really isn't any off the clock time during the school year either, my wife gets emails, calls, texts etc at all hours with the expectation that she will address them quickly. Yes, you can sometimes say no, but eventually you will be worn down and bullied into doing it because it just makes life harder if you don't. Teaching is very similar to a religious position like a Nun or Pastor/Minister, the teacher feels called to do it for reasons that are hard to put on paper, and guess what, the public and admin take advantage of that and use them up and throw them in the trash when they can't take it anymore.

Nopoint mentioned how many subjects he has to teach and that is a big deal. Any of these specific content areas are all on the teacher themselves to invest time and usually their money into if they want to learn about it. Say a program wants a cnc, most of the time the money is barely enough for the machine itself, so that means no training, no tools, no professional setup, no books, sometimes even no wire and conduit to hook the thing up. This is also happening during the time the teacher is supposed to be teaching, so something gets put on the back burner and it is usually the new machine. Or best case the teacher gets trained on it but then doesn't have the time to implement it and put it in the coursework and they forget what they were trained on and they hit a speed bump that stops any momentum they had and it gets even harder to try and use it. I used to get frustrated that some of my teachers didn't have the expertise on certain things I thought they should, but I'll admit it was from ignorance on my part on what they actually have to do.

I think looking to public schools to teach shop classes is expecting too much, I think it will have to come from industry to push it and make it better. It is really nice when it does happen, but putting it all on the teacher is too much.

One of my daughters is a shop teacher at MICA. She helps first-year undergrads with their 3D projects. It is hard work, and she has to figure out what to do for three months in the summer every year. She has good benefits and a 401K, but the pay is dirt. She loves teaching. That is what keeps her there. She could make a lot more money if she worked in the field of her degree in industrial design.

Freedommachine · Dec 2, 2022

dcsipo said:
Hmm. Need to look into that. I am not certain that they will ever be at the scale to create real-world competition, and not sure that they will underbid the jobs. But the point may be valid. The article doe not seem to focus on economics, just the educational value.

One of the members here runs a shop program at a school doing production jobs at cost of material.

He sent me some pictures of their shop awhile back, looks like a very nice program. Students create job travelers, order material, write programs, design workholding, run jobs, track production schedules, everything.

He is teaching on a level far above anything I learned in my local high school precision machining tech classes.

Taking on actual customer work is critical to his process. They are creating real life, 21st century machinists. These programs are not a threat to tax paying shops. They exist to teach, not to expand into a manufacturing business empire.

dcsipo · Dec 2, 2022

Freedommachine said:
One of the members here runs a shop program at a school doing production jobs at cost of material.

He sent me some pictures of their shop awhile back, looks like a very nice program. Students create job travelers, order material, write programs, design workholding, run jobs, track production schedules, everything.

He is teaching on a level far above anything I learned in my local high school precision machining tech classes.

Taking on actual customer work is critical to his process. They are creating real life, 21st century machinists. These programs are not a threat to tax paying shops. They exist to teach, not to expand into a manufacturing business empire.

I would like to see more shops or more extensive factory settings starting up programs like that, maybe even In their facilities, where students could learn and work a day or two a week and get credits. One of the things no education arrangement has figured out is how to make productive team members. Each company must invest time and money to teach fresh hires teamwork. And it is not limited to the machining fields. There is much to be said about the generational transfer of knowledge. The time spent by a child working alongside their parent in a shop is replaced with nothing. We are losing our industrial heritage. I do not want to return to preindustrial practices but hope to learn from our predecessors.

jim rozen · Dec 2, 2022

"wonder on a case-by-case basis if we really do have the right to take from people and spend it on something else."

No you can't. Look join your local govenment. Join your local school board. Just whining about it on a machinist board is prettty worthless. If you want to affect your local or state budget, do something that matters.

BoxcarPete · Dec 2, 2022

jim rozen said:
"wonder on a case-by-case basis if we really do have the right to take from people and spend it on something else."

No you can't. Look join your local govenment. Join your local school board. Just whining about it on a machinist board is prettty worthless. If you want to affect your local or state budget, do something that matters.

I might have been unclear, as if I follow your advice, but have not "wondered" about each "case" where money is collected and spent, what would I advocate for?

I happen to think education is worth investing in, but the way our public education system is set up has some serious shortcomings. What's worse is that fixing them is far too painful, with no guarantee of success either.

john.k · Dec 3, 2022

I remember doing "shop " back in the 60s.......the dummys did shop,the clever ones did extra academic stuff like Latin and Greek and Math ........so getting into shop was a no brainer ......there was wood shop and metal shop.......the teacher was a retired Naval Officer from WW1.......he was know as the admiral,or captain pat after a cartoon character.,and slept most of time,snoring loudly...I learnt important lessons there...like machines hurt you ,stuff needs to be done right or its useless,and probably best of all ...How you can make something you want with your own hands.

We need a lot more of this in the US; what is your state doing?

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