Thought provoking video regarding automakers worldwide

john.k · Dec 17, 2022

Actually ,storing hydrogen isnt hard ......it used to be stored all over the place .....its not hard to make either ,just blow steam over a hot coalbed ......used to be made in three locations around here.....obviously the green communists wont be happy......they are also provided for in my plan.

Ries · Dec 18, 2022

people dont want to buy the current Toyota Mirai because there is no infrastructure to supply the hydrogen, because there is no track record of the lifespan of the hydrogen tanks and systems in cars, and because, right now, hydrogen to fuel a car is very expensive.
They are trying to sell them in California, which is the largest EV market in the US- and failing, even though they are discounting it by more than 50% from list price.
Its not a mature technology, and Toyota started working on fuel cell tech in 1992.

As Hanermo said, hydrogen, in and of itself, is viable on a large scale, but the idea of making it cheap enough for individual cars is not something Toyota has been able to do.
Big trucks, maybe, especially for companies that own fleets, and can justify central fueling depots in house.

Scottl said:
First of all, hydrogen fuel cell cars are EVs even though they are not BEVs. Hybrids are also a form of EV although one that still consumes carbon based fuels.

Your first sentence says it all, people don't want to buy hydrogen vehicles, largely because the same media and "influencers" touting BEVs constantly mention how dangerous hydrogen fuel is and use the Hindenburg as a scare tactic. Another reason is a gross lack of hydrogen fueling infrastructure. There are also huge numbers of people who don't want to buy a BEV. A significant reason is lack of charging infrastructure, especially in rural areas.

Toyota sells vehicles worldwide, including many places where there is a lack of electric infrastructure and they are actually making a wise global business decision that ignores those in western countries who say they are not going "zero carbon" fast enough. In many remote parts of the world there are only dirt roads and refueling is done by hand pumping gasoline or diesel out of drums. Try the equivalent of THAT with your favorite brand of BEV.

standardparts · Dec 18, 2022

Ries said:
people dont want to buy the current Toyota Mirai because there is no infrastructure to supply the hydrogen, because there is no track record of the lifespan of the hydrogen tanks and systems in cars, and because, right now, hydrogen to fuel a car is very expensive.
They are trying to sell them in California, which is the largest EV market in the US- and failing, even though they are discounting it by more than 50% from list price.
Its not a mature technology, and Toyota started working on fuel cell tech in 1992.

As Hanermo said, hydrogen, in and of itself, is viable on a large scale, but the idea of making it cheap enough for individual cars is not something Toyota has been able to do.
Big trucks, maybe, especially for companies that own fleets, and can justify central fueling depots in house.

Likely Toyota and others will find willing backers that have a specific application for hydrogen vehicles. Of course the $millions in grants/tax credits and such are peanuts compared to EV investment, but a million here..a million there....Now if it's a hydrogen pipeline...now we are talking real money.

Hydrogen pipeline between Spain and France to cost $2.6 bln

An underwater pipeline to carry green hydrogen between Spain and France will cost about 2.5 billion euros ($2.6 billion), Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez said on Friday, adding he hoped the European Union would partly fund the project.

www.reuters.com

Autovista24 - Germany provides millions for Toyota’s hydrogen cars

The funding will boost the market activation of fuel-cell cars in the country, with the Mirai seemingly ticking all the right boxes. Toyota has called its Mirai a ground-breaking, zero-emission hydrogen fuel-cell electric sedan. It comes with three hydrogen-fuel tanks, contributing to an...

autovista24.autovistagroup.com

BMW and Toyota to partner on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles

The U.S. network of public hydrogen stations is concentrated in California and not yet developed for mass adoption

techcrunch.com

https://www.nationalworld.com/lifestyle/cars/toyota-secures-ps113m-funding-to-build-hydrogen-powered-hilux-3941229

standardparts · Dec 18, 2022

john.k said:
Actually ,storing hydrogen isnt hard ......it used to be stored all over the place .....its not hard to make either ,just blow steam over a hot coalbed ......used to be made in three locations around here.....obviously the green communists wont be happy......they are also provided for in my plan.

"Green Hydrogen".....Use all the electricity from the sun to produce it. At least that's the "plan".

Freedommachine · Dec 18, 2022

What has stunted the growth of compressed natural gas to power on road vehicles?

Many automakers have CNG options and most city busses run on it. CNG burns cleaner and leaves less carbon build up in engines as well.

A safe, at-home CNG compressor system could even be developed as an option for small engines.

We have plenty of nat gas available in the US. I cannot see how it would make sense to pour all of this $ into hydrogen development when we already have much more stable fuel options available.

Even in 2022, the way we use gasoline - injecting it into an intake or cylinder as a liquid - is less efficient than it could be.

Over the last 2 decades, turbocharger technology has become more reliable. Automakers have been utilizing them to make high hp small displacement engines which is great but; it's about time they break away from off-the-shelf Robert Bosch fuel delivery systems and try something new.

standardparts · Dec 18, 2022

Freedommachine said:
What has stunted the growth of compressed natural gas to power on road vehicles?

Many automakers have CNG options and most city busses run on it. CNG burns cleaner and leaves less carbon build up in engines as well.

A safe, at-home CNG compressor system could even be developed as an option for small engines.

We have plenty of nat gas available in the US. I cannot see how it would make sense to pour all of this $ into hydrogen development when we already have much more stable fuel options available.

Even in 2022, the way we use gasoline - injecting it into an intake or cylinder as a liquid - is less efficient than it could be.

Over the last 2 decades, turbocharger technology has become more reliable. Automakers have been utilizing them to make high hp small displacement engines which is great but; it's about time they break away from off-the-shelf Robert Bosch fuel delivery systems and try something new.

'CNG' is evil. It is a fossil fuel. All fossil fuels are evil.
At least that is pretty much what you will hear from green fanatics.

For the record. I agree with your post...and yes we have an abundant supply of natural gas but let's face it...science can't make bank on any fossil fuel because they have poisoned the well..so to speak.

William Payne · Dec 18, 2022

CNG was used here in New Zealand for a while. It was replaced with LPG, though I couldn't tell you where to get an LPG car filled. It was replaced for safety reasons. CNG got to be considered a bomb.

john.k · Dec 18, 2022

CNG does power some of the bus fleet here ....there have been a number of notable explosions while filling tanks ,apparently because drivers are using systems they either dont understand,or are incapable of safely operating.......anyhoo.....its back to diesel ,while politicians toady about EVs and green .

john.k · Dec 18, 2022

I wouldnt laugh about hydrogen generated by blowing steam over glowing slack........this is precisely how Toyota is producing the fuel for its stage one of the hydrogen revolution.....using the "dirty brown coal "from Victoria's huge deposits.

SeymourDumore · Dec 18, 2022

William Payne said:
CNG was used here in New Zealand for a while. It was replaced with LPG, though I couldn't tell you where to get an LPG car filled. It was replaced for safety reasons. CNG got to be considered a bomb.

Well, there is also LNG now ( for trucks anyway ) : https://www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/trucks/alternative-fuels/gas-powered-trucks.html

john.k · Dec 18, 2022

CNG is high pressure methane at normal temps,and in the case of the busses was compressed on site into pressure vessels on the busses. .........LNG is methane at very low temp ,cold enough to liquefy it at atmospheric pressure..........the export ships all have liquefied gas tanks ,and low temperature is maintained by boiling off some of the gas.........this gas is burned in the ships engine ,so there is no waste........LPG is propane and butane from the refineries ,and was once widely used to fuel gasoline engines..........however ,price has gone up and up ,and its no longer any cheaper than buying gasoline ........consequently ,there is only a very few filling sites left.

SeymourDumore · Dec 18, 2022

john.k said:
CNG is high pressure methane at normal temps,and in the case of the busses was compressed on site into pressure vessels on the busses. .........LNG is methane at very low temp ,cold enough to liquefy it at atmospheric pressure..........

I know that!
What I was posting there is that LNG might overtake all other form of gas ( CNG or LPG ) powered long road trucks.
They are essentially a diesel engine that's specifically designed to run on LNG.
LNG in it's liquid form is both, atmospheric pressure AND non flammable.

john.k · Dec 18, 2022

As mentioned,all fossil fuels are out,and EV is in.....so I think thats the end of using gas for trucks .....Young people have been thoroughly indoctrinated by green school teachers,and that will only get more intense in years to come.

Scottl · Dec 19, 2022

john.k said:
As mentioned,all fossil fuels are out,and EV is in.....so I think thats the end of using gas for trucks .....Young people have been thoroughly indoctrinated by green school teachers,and that will only get more intense in years to come.

"The report of my death was an exaggeration."
- Mark Twain

Saying that carbon fuels are out and EV is in is at best premature, and at worst an exaggeration. There are applications where liquid (at normal temperatures) fuels, especially diesel, will be with us for many decades to come. LNG not only has a lower energy density than diesel but also requires cryogenic tanks which reduce how many gallons can be stored in the same space. Also, diesel can be stored in ordinary containers in extreme heat such as desert environments. This line from the article sums it up.

"The driving range of NGVs is generally less than that of comparable diesel or gasoline vehicles due to the lower energy density of natural gas. Extra storage tanks can increase range, but the additional weight may displace cargo capacity."

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Natural Gas Vehicles

afdc.energy.gov

SeymourDumore · Dec 19, 2022

Scottl said:
LNG not only has a lower energy density than diesel but also requires cryogenic tanks which reduce how many gallons can be stored in the same space. Also, diesel can be stored in ordinary containers in extreme heat such as desert environments.

Well, according to this chart, by volume LNG has approximately the same energy density as diesel.

Loading…

afdc.energy.gov

IOW a gallon of LNG weighs a bit less than a gallon of diesel ( 6.06 vs 7 lb) and contains roughly the same amount of energy.
So no need for a larger fuel storage and only a little weight penalty.
Couple it with the reduction in pollutants, I think it is a good alternative to diesel, no to mention that at least the US is 100% self reliant on LNG.
Yes, the tanks are heavier and bulkier due to the insulation requirements, but I'd rather drive around with an LNG storage tank strapped to my undercarriage instead of a very potent bomb of CNG.

Ries · Dec 19, 2022

Where I live part of the year, in Buenos Aires Argentina, the government mandated CNG for taxis at least ten years ago, and they had, pre pandemia, more taxis than any other city globally. There are over 1500 CNG gas stations in Argentina, and in the city, dozens of stations thatare CNG only for cabs.
1,500,000 CNG cars and trucks nationwide. Some buses, too.
This was instuited by the greens, because its much better than the diesels it replaced. I remember when the cabs here were all pugeuot 504 diesels, spewing big black clouds. The city air is much cleaner now.
I ride in CNG cabs every day. They dont go very fast, probably top out around 65 on the freeway, but they work just fine. Big tank in the trunk.
The big problem is infrastructure, and here the government just mandated the taxis switch, which created eno of a market (there used to be 30;000 cabs here- fewer now) For gas companies to install pumps, and for small shops to become skilled at conversions.

Scottl · Dec 20, 2022

SeymourDumore said:
Well, according to this chart, by volume LNG has approximately the same energy density as diesel.

Loading…

afdc.energy.gov

IOW a gallon of LNG weighs a bit less than a gallon of diesel ( 6.06 vs 7 lb) and contains roughly the same amount of energy.
So no need for a larger fuel storage and only a little weight penalty.
Couple it with the reduction in pollutants, I think it is a good alternative to diesel, no to mention that at least the US is 100% self reliant on LNG.
Yes, the tanks are heavier and bulkier due to the insulation requirements, but I'd rather drive around with an LNG storage tank strapped to my undercarriage instead of a very potent bomb of CNG.

But if you are running heavy trucks and construction equipment in a remote part of the world you would want neither and stick to diesel.

SeymourDumore · Dec 20, 2022

Scottl said:
But if you are running heavy trucks and construction equipment in a remote part of the world you would want neither and stick to diesel.

The LNG trucks are diesel, in fact they require a small amount of diesel to work.
I was reading it up a while ago, and for some reason I think they can go from anywhere min. 5% to 100% diesel.

Scottl · Dec 20, 2022

SeymourDumore said:
The LNG trucks are diesel, in fact they require a small amount of diesel to work.
I was reading it up a while ago, and for some reason I think they can go from anywhere min. 5% to 100% diesel.

And that would be workable in some remote hot desert where you had to operate for weeks and months IF the diesel tanks are large enough. Use LNG when near metropolitan centers with the infrastructure and diesel when out in the boonies.

DDoug · Dec 20, 2022

Scottl said:
And that would be workable in some remote hot desert where you had to operate for weeks and months IF the diesel tanks are large enough. Use LNG when near metropolitan centers with the infrastructure and diesel when out in the boonies.

No, they need the diesel to fire off the LNG (vaporized LNG)
so you always need both systems to be working at all times.
And so you need tier 4 compliance at ALL times as well......

Thought provoking video regarding automakers worldwide

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