Deep holes drilling

trevj · Nov 1, 2022

g3nus said:
Hi friends, I found a repost of a classic deep hole drilling. It contains a lot of cool information and some drawings of what I believe to be one of the first gundrills. Which they called D drill. Very ugly by the way! lol I hope the ADM doesn't mind if I post links here.

https://archive.org/details/deepholedrillingbymachinerymagazine/mode/1up

Look this

Again you are drawing on essentially ancient technology. OK stuff, if the guy that wrote that book about it, actually had any idea about what was actually going on. My observations, have been that that particular skill among the writers about such stuff, has been somewhere between rare and non-existent! But they were good at transcribing previous works near verbatim, and had no problems with copying info that they knew not a thing about.

Unless you are purposely trying to re-create some piece of old tech, by old methods, why are you wasting your time on this crap?

In all seriousness, if you want to work in a flat belt driven workshop, then stick to flat belt levels of Technology. If you actually wish to accomplish an end goal, look at what the modern suppliers are able to provide!

g3nus · Nov 2, 2022

trevj said:
Again you are drawing on essentially ancient technology. OK stuff, if the guy that wrote that book about it, actually had any idea about what was actually going on. My observations, have been that that particular skill among the writers about such stuff, has been somewhere between rare and non-existent! But they were good at transcribing previous works near verbatim, and had no problems with copying info that they knew not a thing about.

Unless you are purposely trying to re-create some piece of old tech, by old methods, why are you wasting your time on this crap?

In all seriousness, if you want to work in a flat belt driven workshop, then stick to flat belt levels of Technology. If you actually wish to accomplish an end goal, look at what the modern suppliers are able to provide!

And once again you're inconvenient. I believe you don't know how to interpret a text or you have cognitive problems that don't allow such a thing. I don't want to buy a gundrill. I don't have any desperate customers. What I want is to build something like the old gunsmiths did, know the difficulties, learn and have fun. Hope you don't have any problems with that. Leave me alone and go fuck yourself.

trevj · Nov 2, 2022

g3nus said:
And once again you're inconvenient. I believe you don't know how to interpret a text or you have cognitive problems that don't allow such a thing. I don't want to buy a gundrill. I don't have any desperate customers. What I want is to build something like the old gunsmiths did, know the difficulties, learn and have fun. Hope you don't have any problems with that. Leave me alone and go fuck yourself.

LOL! Thin skin, or what?

I, at least, can find something besides 100 year old sources for how these are made and sharpened.

If I can find them, you should be able to as well. But so far, all you have demonstrated is failure to do so.

But I will tell you one really important tip. Don't drill all the way through your barrel stock! Very Messy!

CarbideBob · Nov 2, 2022

trevj said:
In all seriousness, if you want to work in a flat belt driven workshop, then stick to flat belt levels of Technology. If you actually wish to accomplish an end goal, look at what the modern suppliers are able to provide!

Perhaps you can tell us the changes in gun drilling design since the "old" flat belt days?
Or do you just buy and believe catalog and advertising stuff written by a 20 something paid low wages and fresh out of school?

g3nus · Nov 2, 2022

trevj said:
LOL! Pele fina, ou o quê?

Eu, pelo menos, posso encontrar algo além de fontes de 100 anos de como elas são feitas e afiadas.

Se eu posso encontrá-los, você deve ser capaz de também. Mas até agora, tudo o que você demonstrou foi o fracasso em fazê-lo.

Mas vou te contar uma dica muito importante. Não perfure todo o seu estoque de barril! Muito bagunçado!

g3nus · Nov 2, 2022

In all my research I've noticed that the concept of deep hole drilling hasn't changed a single comma. except, the types of materials used today in the drill tips. But there you have it, straight holes from 30" to 32 feet. And all that with a flat belt. with hss steel. you disdain the flat belt, but do you have the capacity to do what they did with their resources? I highly doubt it. you must be the one who asks mom to fry the bacon, because you're afraid of burning your hand!

trevj · Nov 3, 2022

CarbideBob said:
Perhaps you can tell us the changes in gun drilling design since the "old" flat belt days?
Or do you just buy and believe catalog and advertising stuff written by a 20 something paid low wages and fresh out of school?

Dunno, for sure, man, but I'd put my twenty buck bet on it, that Guhrig isn't letting their junior sales weasels write their tech literature.

What has changed? Some of the geometry has been refined, materials and coatings are much improved, and the cause and effect of changes of geometry are better understood. As are the harmonics of the drill tube, and how to control them.The reference material contains much better recommendations of speeds and feeds, as well as oil flow rates and pressures, based on experience.

Given that our genius here was, a very few days back, unable to recognize what was wrong with the 3D render of a supposed gun drill that he downloaded, in preparation for pulling of his declared attempt at, essentially, a miracle, that being somehow pulling off a perfectly aligned and drilled deep hole, first try ever, I find his assumptions that he should somehow need to relearn all the mistakes that were made along the way to even the point of 100 years old literature, kinda laughable.
OK, arrogant and stupid, instead of actually funny. He'd do better to invest time in learning much more about what amounts to modern practice, with modern tooling and materials, than he would to be dicking around with 100 year old literature and trying to recreate the tech, mainly because he is unlike to have access to the same tools and machinery that the authors write about.

If the OP was looking to demo in a tech museum full of that era's tools and tooling, I would still suggest using as modern methods as can be got, to learn how to succeed at drilling an accurate hole, so that when he tried the old methods, he would have a solid basis for understanding the differences between the new and old tech, and why nobody has gone out of their way to rely on the old stuff these days.

Frankly, for a guy that has to ask the questions he has, with his stated objective, he's wasting his time.

g3nus · Nov 3, 2022

trevj said:
Dunno, for sure, man, but I'd put my twenty buck bet on it, that Guhrig isn't letting their junior sales weasels write their tech literature.

What has changed? Some of the geometry has been refined, materials and coatings are much improved, and the cause and effect of changes of geometry are better understood. As are the harmonics of the drill tube, and how to control them.The reference material contains much better recommendations of speeds and feeds, as well as oil flow rates and pressures, based on experience.

Given that our genius here was, a very few days back, unable to recognize what was wrong with the 3D render of a supposed gun drill that he downloaded, in preparation for pulling of his declared attempt at, essentially, a miracle, that being somehow pulling off a perfectly aligned and drilled deep hole, first try ever, I find his assumptions that he should somehow need to relearn all the mistakes that were made along the way to even the point of 100 years old literature, kinda laughable.
OK, arrogant and stupid, instead of actually funny. He'd do better to invest time in learning much more about what amounts to modern practice, with modern tooling and materials, than he would to be dicking around with 100 year old literature and trying to recreate the tech, mainly because he is unlike to have access to the same tools and machinery that the authors write about.

If the OP was looking to demo in a tech museum full of that era's tools and tooling, I would still suggest using as modern methods as can be got, to learn how to succeed at drilling an accurate hole, so that when he tried the old methods, he would have a solid basis for understanding the differences between the new and old tech, and why nobody has gone out of their way to rely on the old stuff these days.

Frankly, for a guy that has to ask the questions he has, with his stated objective, he's wasting his time.

I work with roughing bits, facing, among others, and helical drills. And despite knowing the DBIT design, I had only seen some with always right angles, I was unaware of the type of continuous axial relief angle grinding, as proposed in Howe's gundrill. By the way, thank you for sending me to study further, because I now recognize that the HOWE bit is a model N73 sold by ELDORADO TOOLS. Are they paying royalties to the flat belt gunsmiths? Are they proud of doing better just because they have access to better materials? Surely they must be satisfied that they only perfected something that was invented in the last century. An iron bar, a knife and some gunpowder, these guys built a rifle that would hit your ass at a thousand yards. Right in the middle, I believe you know where it is.

CarbideBob · Nov 3, 2022

trevj said:
Dunno, for sure, man, but I'd put my twenty buck bet on it, that Guhrig isn't letting their junior sales weasels write their tech literature.

Perhaps if your family and friends had been working for many worldwide cutting tool makers since the early 50s you may place that bet differently.

trevj · Nov 3, 2022

CarbideBob said:
Perhaps if your family and friends had been working for many worldwide cutting tool makers since the early 50s you may place that bet differently.

Yeah, perhaps. I'll hold out the faint hope that the junior sales weasels get left putting together Ad copy and the next year's Thomas Register page. Leastwise, it would seem awfully strange to have that individual pulling recommended speeds and feeds out of thin air, as it would likely severely affect future sales, no?
At least, that is to say, I don't know a lot of folks that would buy repeatedly, something that doesn't work according to the directions it comes with.

Outside of Politics! LOL! Happens a lot there! But there are not a lot of politicians drawn from the Machine Shops of the world either!

As a side note, when was the last time you saw "Best Armory Steel" as a spec listed in a Catalog? Times have moved on, and materials available to us, would have made the likes of Howe, salivate, had he known!

I'd have to go look to check, but I am pretty sure my copy of Modern Gunsmithing was written circa first years of WW2, and other than the few items that originated from his shop, he certainly had not invented much of what he wrote of. His main gig was making fancy custom rifles from various surplus arms, for his customer base.

So the 'genius's' issue about royalties is solved by saying that the modern folks payed exactly to Howe, what Howe paid to those that invented the drill in the first place, which amounts to nothing beyond the flattery of imitation. And improvements, as able.

I still will stand by that the genius ought to leave his X-box trash-talk alone for a while, buy a decent drill and make his hole. At least at that, he will be assured that it will be 'that' many fewer possible things that could have gone wrong, if he fails.
If his sole purpose is to make and use the drill, he should have at least enough data in hand to shut up and get on with it, and post his success for us to congratulate him upon.
If he manages.

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