Dean Smith & Grace 17 Toolroom

CBarrow · Nov 30, 2022

I'm fairly sure there should be a spring to release the drive when tripped - it's an instant reaction when you push the lever down and it goes with a bit of a 'clack' which is more than I would think gravity could provide.

What oil pump do you have now then on your machine? For reference the standard DSG pump often needs priming after being idle or drained for a long time.

FJsapper · Dec 1, 2022

CBarrow said:
I'm fairly sure there should be a spring to release the drive when tripped - it's an instant reaction when you push the lever down and it goes with a bit of a 'clack' which is more than I would think gravity could provide.

What oil pump do you have now then on your machine? For reference the standard DSG pump often needs priming after being idle or drained for a long time.

Okay I’ll have to dig a little deeper into the case then

I’m fitting an external electric pump, the original pump, worm gear, and mounting point have all been removed at some point. All that remains is the metal filter stack.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Dec 1, 2022

FJsapper said:
Okay I’ll have to dig a little deeper into the case then

I’m fitting an external electric pump, the original pump, worm gear, and mounting point have all been removed at some point. All that remains is the metal filter stack.

On the DSG’s I worked on you could engage and disengage the feed lever with one finger. The action was really smooth and positive.

Regards Tyrone.

PDW · Dec 1, 2022

Tyrone Shoelaces said:
On the DSG’s I worked on you could engage and disengaged the feed lever with one finger. The action was really smooth and positive.

Regards Tyrone.

I've just been using mine a fair bit and I agree, that's my experience.

I really like this lathe, too. Un-leveled and built in 1954, currently it's turning a 0.0005" taper in 4". And what you dial in to take off is exactly what you get.

The only thing I really dislike is the cross slide grads are in radius not diameter so I have to divide by 2 all the time, which is contrary to how my 3 other lathes work. I can see a DRO in the near future...

PDW

Tyrone Shoelaces · Dec 1, 2022

PDW said:
I've just been using mine a fair bit and I agree, that's my experience.

I really like this lathe, too. Un-leveled and built in 1954, currently it's turning a 0.0005" taper in 4". And what you dial in to take off is exactly what you get.

The only thing I really dislike is the cross slide grads are in radius not diameter so I have to divide by 2 all the time, which is contrary to how my 3 other lathes work. I can see a DRO in the near future...

PDW

You mean if you put a 0.200” cut on with the index the tool takes 0.400“ off the diameter of the bar ? Until I worked at the high school and came across some 1970’s “ Colchester “ Students that behaved in the opposite manner that was the only type of lathe I knew. They were also in the metric execution. It took me a little while to figure them out.

Regards Tyrone.

PDW · Dec 3, 2022

Tyrone Shoelaces said:
You mean if you put a 0.200” cut on with the index the tool takes 0.400“ off the diameter of the bar ?

Yes.

I'm used to dialing say 0.200 on the dial and the diameter reduces by 0.200. Not 0.400. That's how my Monarch CY works, how my Chipmaster works and how my Emco Maximat works.

It's a right PITA that the DS&G doesn't work like that. But a DRO will fix that issue.

As soon as I get around to fitting one. Which might be a while, unless I screw up a few jobs by forgetting.....

PDW

Peter S · Dec 6, 2022

FJsapper said:
There is also some molestation to the V thread portion in the handle end. All these fasteners and pitches seem a little weird. I think they might all be some weird brit pitch other than 60 degree…

Depending on the age of the lathe, the fasteners might be BSW, BSF and BSP. All have a thread angle of 55 degrees. Maybe some B.A. threads too (47.5 degrees).

I guess DS&G changed over to Unified threads at some point, maybe it has been mentioned in the long-running DS&G thread.

FJsapper · Dec 14, 2022

Had a little bit of scope creep

I will say DSG was on to something with all the grub screws vs taper pins, it was a pleasure to not have to drill anything out for a change. It took me a little under 2 hours to drop all the rods, lead screw, and apron. Nothing seems obviously out of place but I’ll dig further tomorrow.

If it turns out to be nothing at least I’ve had a chance to scrub out the case, replace several broken springs, and get all the shift linkage tuned up nicely.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Dec 15, 2022

FJsapper said:
Had a little bit of scope creep

I will say DSG was on to something with all the grub screws vs taper pins, it was a pleasure to not have to drill anything out for a change. It took me a little under 2 hours to drop all the rods, lead screw, and apron. Nothing seems obviously out of place but I’ll dig further tomorrow.

If it turns out to be nothing at least I’ve had a chance to scrub out the case, replace several broken springs, and get all the shift linkage tuned up nicely.

View attachment 381658

I always found them a pleasure to work on. 2hrs is about par for the course barring unforeseen snags.
I can see that’s your own shop but in an industrial environment we never left the headstock cover off unless it was necessary. We’d just put a sheet of polythene over it. There’s usually all sorts of crap flying around in a busy shop.

Regards Tyrone.

FJsapper · Dec 15, 2022

Tyrone Shoelaces said:
Regards Tyrone.

Thanks Tyrone, you are spot on about keeping the headstock covered. Sometimes the frustration of finding one annoying hidden maintenance task after another gets the better of me

.

On another note after breaking down the feed shaft I may have found why the feed train wasn’t dropping free…looks like somebody got a little careless in the past knocking the plain feed bushing out. Those little ridges probably added just enough drag to keep it from dropping out of gear. For the life of me I see no other springs or anything to action the worm gear and its carrier downwards. I’m still getting the case apart so maybe I’ll find more…

FJsapper · Dec 18, 2022

Got the apron all back together. A little careful burr removal and everything engages just fine! The worm gear carrier that engages the feed train does in fact drop out of gear by gravity. With the shaft and pivot points all cleaned up it actually drops out of gear with authority because of the carrier weight.

On another note, DSG did not seem to be very fond of bronze bushings. Most of the shafts and action surfaces are just fine fitting bores white metal on each side. Not really sure how I feel about that but everything is still a nice tight fit so I guess it worked out just fine design wise. My old Bradford had bronze bushings on every single pivot point

CBarrow · Dec 21, 2022

I'm surprised you say that regarding the bearings, or lack thereof. I've found on the Type 17 a lot of the shafts in the apron etc are all running in ball race bearings. I think my Type 13 has fewer, with some shafts running in the iron (though some now need bronze bushes due to a previous owner using grease on everything...eurgh!)

FJsapper · Dec 22, 2022

Got the new pump plumbed in. Everything is running nice now!

Also got the apron all the way put back together and my LSR dog clutch massaging seems to have worked out just fine.

FJsapper · Dec 22, 2022

The other thing I need to figure out is how the hell to know what pitch and feed is dialed in on the box… As you can see the black rotary knob selects a column 1-8, from there I don’t really understand how letters A-E are dialed to a specific thread on the selector field…. There do not appear to be any letters listed on the selector field that I can see so I’m not really sure which thread or pitch within each column is selected. Any tips?

Peter S · Dec 23, 2022

FJsapper,

This is what you are missing, however it is from a different model. Hopefully someone has a photo of the correct one. Maybe shown in the manual?

It's hard to know how the letters would get lost (possibly something has broken the glass and the indicator) but here is some ones rough fix:

EDIT note: After posting this I noticed someone has engraved or marked the letters on your selector! Or maybe they have faded.

There are many nice features on a DSG lathe and I reckon the threads/feeds selector panel is one of them.

Toolmaker51 · Dec 23, 2022

macsonboy said:
i don't have a DSG but have access to one, always been told they are the rolls royce of lathes .

Awfully nice for sure, comfortable to run by short stautured operators, great power and h-e-a-v-y. Certainly high in list of Euro lathes, up there with HES.
But not ATW Pacemakers...!

FJsapper · Dec 24, 2022

Peter S said:
FJsapper,

This is what you are missing, however it is from a different model. Hopefully someone has a photo of the correct one. Maybe shown in the manual?

View attachment 382341

It's hard to know how the letters would get lost (possibly something has broken the glass and the indicator) but here is some ones rough fix:

EDIT note: After posting this I noticed someone has engraved or marked the letters on your selector! Or maybe they have faded.

View attachment 382342

There are many nice features on a DSG lathe and I reckon the threads/feeds selector panel is one of them.

View attachment 382344

Holy smokes that makes total sense! Thank you for sharing!

Now I need to track down somebody with a 17t to get a good pic…

FJsapper · Dec 24, 2022

Peter S said:
FJsapper,

This is what you are missing, however it is from a different model. Hopefully someone has a photo of the correct one. Maybe shown in the manual?

View attachment 382341

It's hard to know how the letters would get lost (possibly something has broken the glass and the indicator) but here is some ones rough fix:

EDIT note: After posting this I noticed someone has engraved or marked the letters on your selector! Or maybe they have faded.

View attachment 382342

There are many nice features on a DSG lathe and I reckon the threads/feeds selector panel is one of them.

View attachment 382344

Man I just re-read your post and boy am I glad I did! Those are in fact letters in the photo I posted. They are 100% not readable in person, it must have been freak luck that they are visible on that photo, must have been just the right lighting conditions.

CBarrow · Friday at 5:07 PM

The selector is red anodised aluminium, and fades badly. We have a 17T at work but I won't be there next week as I'm away. If I remember I'll get a pic for you

In the two ranges D and E, D is the higher range (faster feeds, coarser threads). In each 'range' you have the choice of A to C, A being the fastest feeds.

FJsapper · Friday at 9:21 PM

Been busy, working on a chuck backer for a bison 10”x my DSG chucks have like .003-.005” runout no matter what. The chucks are running try’s but the jaws are thrashed as well as the scrolls/screws. Also hogged out a way cover, took me like 8 hours, I NEED a bigger mill lol

Dean Smith & Grace 17 Toolroom

Plastic

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Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

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Diamond

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Aluminum

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Aluminum

Diamond

Cast Iron

Aluminum

Aluminum

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Aluminum

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