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Measured Thermal Expansion of a 1.25" dia by 10" long Steel Bar in Response to Bare Hand Contact

eKretz

Diamond; Mod Squad
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Location
Northwest Indiana, USA
Yeah, the point would be to see how much handling and for how long makes a practical difference; obviously the growth can be calculated at different temperatures. Handling in different ways will affect the outcome, bar shape will affect the outcome, how the item is gripped will affect the outcome... Not readily calculated at all.
 

Conrad Hoffman

Titanium
Joined
May 10, 2009
Location
Canandaigua, NY, USA
I used to work for a company that made interferometers and have more than a passing familiarity with thermal expansion. The simple linear case is easily calculated and more accurate than you'll do by experiment, at least outside a good lab. If you want time related answers with asymmetric heat inputs, there are programs that make it pretty easy, at least if you have the time and mental horsepower to create the models (I don't!) Where you really get screwed is when you bolt two things together. It invariably creates a bimetal strip situation, and the resulting motion in some areas can be an order of magnitude more than the COE numbers would initially lead you to believe. IMO, it's the joining of parts where the real design skills come into play. You can also create reentrant designs where the COE of one material cancels out that of another, but it only works for slow temperature changes where everything is near equilibrium.
 

michiganbuck

Diamond
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
Back when making gauges I had to wear cotton gloves handling, and then a part would be set on an iron plate in a temperature-controlled room for a time before being inspected. Most would have a tenth or 50 millionths but I would make them close to dead on so the inspector could not make a jest about size.
 
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Milland

Diamond
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Location
Hillsboro, New Hampshire
Given you have maybe 20 degrees of temperature swing from your shop to hand skin temp the most length gain is .0001. (.000005 x 20). That is most, being the iron will not dissipate heat back into the shop (which is violating all sorts of rules).
I think you're missing the length of the part here, so multiply by an additional 8 - 10 for the strut length.

I work in climate controlled by central standard weather shop- my results will might vary (100+ summer, 20’s winter).
Not much fun for you or the equipment - do you get condensation on the machines part of the year?
 

magneticanomaly

Titanium
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Location
On Elk Mountain, West Virginia, USA
I love the real-world measurement.
I know you do not need a handle/insulator, but i am looking as i type at an old Chemex coffee-maker, an hourglass-shaped beaker, with a pair of wooden grips tied around the middle with a cord.
Two matching wooden halves, with your logo laser-engraved or branded, could be glued around your bar.
 

Flail

Cast Iron
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Location
Bonsall, CA
Unless your hand is 10“ wide you are only heating a portion of the bar. The rest of the bar is both warming slightly from conduction from the hand warmed area and also cooling by radiating to the environment. I imagine the formula for the bar growth should only consider a small portion of the bar your hand is covering.
 

memphisjed

Stainless
Joined
Jan 21, 2019
Location
Memphis
I think you're missing the length of the part here, so multiply by an additional 8 - 10 for the strut length.


Not much fun for you or the equipment - do you get condensation on the machines part of the year?
Part of the year it is dry or 75.
 

MCritchley

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Location
Milwaukee
What happens when you are cutting the metal?
Seems that temps here would be quite away above my hand.
Yep, and we measure once the part has cooled down.
And that’s why we scrape things in,
we have a good sense of when temperature is giving us erroneous results.
Since this thread is regarding scraped tooling I’ll add:

One thing to note about metal growing “just a tenth”. Think about the upper bridge of a cast iron straight edge growing a tenth. That bridge growing a tenth will move the hinge points out and create a hollow. Now you have a convex straight edge. Ink it up and drop it on a way surface and it’s going to tell you that the ends are low so you need to scrape material from the ends and not the middle.
After that pass you take a break for a burrito, you come back ink up your cold straight edge and place it on the way and notice is hinging on the middle, wtf? Ok fine, scrape the middle back down and continue to ask your self what just happened.

I like to have all of my cast iron references as flat as possible so I won’t get confused when scraping. It’s so easy to introduce error though bad straight edge hinge. How concave is the straight edge from having your hand on it? Enough to have a false print, and that is the enemy of any scraper hand.

If you think this is silly paranoia about heat induced movement, just smear more blue on the part your scraping and call it done.
 

LexD

Hot Rolled
Joined
Sep 4, 2002
Location
Riddells Creek,Victoria,Australia
Yep, and we measure once the part has cooled down.
And that’s why we scrape things in,
we have a good sense of when temperature is giving us erroneous results.
Since this thread is regarding scraped tooling I’ll add:

One thing to note about metal growing “just a tenth”. Think about the upper bridge of a cast iron straight edge growing a tenth. That bridge growing a tenth will move the hinge points out and create a hollow. Now you have a convex straight edge. Ink it up and drop it on a way surface and it’s going to tell you that the ends are low so you need to scrape material from the ends and not the middle.


I think that should be Concave.
 

dgfoster

Diamond
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Location
Bellingham, WA
What happens when you are cutting the metal?
Seems that temps here would be quite away above my hand.
And, when I mill my straight edges for customers, I take a few decent cuts to get good clean surfaces and the take a break as the surface may have warmed to 100 to 100F degrees or so. When all has settled down an hour or so later, I take one or two few-thou cuts slowly traversing and using SHARP inserts. There is barely a palpable warming of the part. (A sure sign of dulling cutters is heating of the part). Using that technique I can reliably get flatness well under a thou over 18 inches making a surface that does not take many passes before starting to blue-up well.

Given a chance, cast iron conducts heat pretty well to even out local heating effects. But local heating like a hand on a SE bow or a strut gets thing out of whack. Just how much and how quickly is at the heart of this thread and is the reason for making real world measurements rather than speaking in the usual generalities we’ve all heard repeated so many times.

Denis
 

Bakafish

Cast Iron
Joined
Feb 21, 2022
Location
Tokyo Japan
While the experiment itself is interesting, the countermeasures (thermally isolated gripping surfaces) are so inexpensive and simple to implement that it seems a bit reckless not to. Many of the best precision levels use wood or bakelite like materials, seems like questioning orthodoxy on this point doesn't really save a lot of cost relative to the casting itself. The point made by @MCritchley about the deflection, however small, potentially changing or inverting the curvature of the reference surface is critical. Castings are often beautiful, but this is a case where I think that form should come first. Using different thicknesses and profiles, sweeping curves and variable cross sections, all could make the tool more susceptible to heat non-linearities. Getting everything thermally stable, even in an environmentally controlled workspace, must still be a challenge.

I know this is the wrong thread, but in a non-conditioned environment having a (grippable) support with a much higher surface area to cross section than the rest of the tool may be asking for trouble. My instinct is you want the instrument to react as monolithically to the environment as possible. I get that is dogmatic thinking, and this real world experiment is trying to add some data points to validate if this is really something to worry about, but I suspect we would need to make a more complex experiment (or simulation) if we are trying to validate that design.
 

dgfoster

Diamond
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Location
Bellingham, WA
While the experiment itself is interesting, the countermeasures (thermally isolated gripping surfaces) are so inexpensive and simple to implement that it seems a bit reckless not to. Many of the best precision levels use wood or bakelite like materials, seems like questioning orthodoxy on this point doesn't really save a lot of cost relative to the casting itself. The point made by @MCritchley about the deflection, however small, potentially changing or inverting the curvature of the reference surface is critical. Castings are often beautiful, but this is a case where I think that form should come first. Using different thicknesses and profiles, sweeping curves and variable cross sections, all could make the tool more susceptible to heat non-linearities. Getting everything thermally stable, even in an environmentally controlled workspace, must still be a challenge.

I know this is the wrong thread, but in a non-conditioned environment having a (grippable) support with a much higher surface area to cross section than the rest of the tool may be asking for trouble. My instinct is you want the instrument to react as monolithically to the environment as possible. I get that is dogmatic thinking, and this real world experiment is trying to add some data points to validate if this is really something to worry about, but I suspect we would need to make a more complex experiment (or simulation) if we are trying to validate that design.
And I disagree with most of his post and I want to avoid unecessary precautions that make no real difference but come at a cost. I think it is best to know when precautions are needed or are not needed. Then respond accordingly. Knowing is the whole reason the measurements were done and to this point indicate that under conditions of normal use and handling, almost never will insulation be needed for tolerances well under .0001". That is good enough for almost all practical use of such a plate. When going for closer tolerances all factors including careful environmental temp control, body heat transfer from both touch and even body heat radiation, extra care in cleaning reference surfaces and so on will ALL come into play. I think a person would know when working to ordinary high precision is in play and when the limits of precision are being pushed. That's when insulation (and everything else) comes into play.

If someone wants to work using maximal precautiona at all times, so be it. My whole intent was to try to have some real world basis to decide when those precautions actually make a difference and are therefore useful.


Denis
 

memphisjed

Stainless
Joined
Jan 21, 2019
Location
Memphis
A strut will have less impact than a solid gusset or beam structure with heat growth. If thin enough to make no difference structurally then it will bend before critical faces move by its anti-compression. Of course all forces move material some amount, yet at some point we have to call it close enough. A ball bearing can never be a perfect sphere when it sits on a table due to its own weight.
Close enough is relative, still a value we have. See the flattest part thread - flat to near molecular level. Still not flat.
 

Bakafish

Cast Iron
Joined
Feb 21, 2022
Location
Tokyo Japan
And I disagree with most of his post and I want to avoid unecessary precautions that make no real difference but come at a cost. I think it is best to know when precautions are needed or are not needed. Then respond accordingly. Knowing is the whole reason the measurements were done and to this point indicate that under conditions of normal use and handling, almost never will insulation be needed for tolerances well under .0001". That is good enough for almost all practical use of such a plate. When going for closer tolerances all factors including careful environmental temp control, body heat transfer from both touch and even body heat radiation, extra care in cleaning reference surfaces and so on will ALL come into play. I think a person would know when working to ordinary high precision is in play and when the limits of precision are being pushed. That's when insulation (and everything else) comes into play.

If someone wants to work using maximal precautiona at all times, so be it. My whole intent was to try to have some real world basis to decide when those precautions actually make a difference and are therefore useful.


Denis
I hear what you are saying and agree on unnecessary overdesign or overspecification, but the points I was trying to make were:
  1. When you can easily insulate the gripping surface of such a tool, it seems like cheap insurance to do so.
  2. Even if the movement is tiny, it could still potentially have a non-linear influence on the curvature of a reference surface.
  3. Large differences in surface area and cross section in sub structures of a design are going to make it more sensitive to thermal disparities.
I don't think I'm advocating anything extreme here, I get that you are saying you want to see evidence before taking any of these actions, I agree about wanting evidence, but in absence of it, conservatism seems wiser. Maybe you're right that in normal use this won't matter, I don't think the experiment above is proof enough, maybe we disagree on that. But if a manufacturer is going to pursue aesthetic design of a reference instrument (a worthy goal) over more simplistic or proven alternatives, I suggest they have some duty to know that it won't compromise the function. The actual device in question has a lot going on and may react unexpectedly or unintuitively. Testing with an actual casting, or the 1/2 sized prototype unit would likely provide better answers, and I think everyone will be pleased if it is proven to be stable even when handled without so much concern.
 








 
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