No. 2 Gearbox issue:

Doc, Sir
Not the most scientific way to go about things but here's what I try ( as it seems you have the obvious thing covered). Loosen #11, engage feed handle, loosen #12 as mush as you dare, tighten #11, go have a beer and forget about it for a bit. If you feel the need to work on the machine fiddle with the electrical for a bit.
My issue for what it's worth was funky grease in the bearing between to clutch gear and the engagement handle.. Kinda dried out while it was setting before I got it.. Took awhile to get it loose. The springs in the clutch gear are surprisingly strong and really do shove the gear and cone apart forcefully. The only thing I can think of is the worm gear is keeping the clutch gear engaged.. I dunno.. sometimes I just have to walk away from things for a bit. Does the cam on the engagement handle have a set screw or an adjustment ?
Stay safe
Calvin B

DocsMachine said:

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Doc, what locates the grey clutch cone along the shaft? The Woodruf key handles rotation, but what's the axial stop/locator? Is it possible that it simply needs to be driven a bit further to the right to free the clutch when not engaged?

Possibly found the culprit. One of the four spring-loaded pins that keeps the two halves of the clutch apart when not engaged, appears to have fallen out. Before the box is installed- IE, the shaft is in place- the two parts can 'rattle about' a bit, and presumably at some point one of the pins slid out.

Here's the old pic from when I first removed the two parts:



I've turned the gearbox over a couple of times but can't hear anything rattling. And I haven't seen a mysterious pin appear on the floor or anywhere, so I'll presume it's still inside.

It can fit through those "windows" in the bronze gear (or at least it appears it can) but because of the recessed nature of the cone, it may not have been able to fall all the way out.

If it's still in there- and fishing for it with a wire hasn't revealed anything- then naturally it'll likely jam in between the two, making it feel like the clutch is always engaged.

The only problem is, of course, that I have to re-dismantle the entire fucking gearbox- again- to get at it.

[sigh]

Doc.

No sense in moaning about it.

Apart, again!



And solved!



Finally spins smooth and free, just like it's supposed to.

And, of course, with the ram and turret back in place, the motion is slick, free and easy, like it's supposed to be.



What was the ultimate issue? The bronze gear. Not 100% certain how it happened, but I suspect that the first time I reassembled it, the sharp shoulder of the step that gear rides on scarred the bore of the gear just a little. Those burrs, for want of a better term, produced the drag.

Yes, that pin was out of place too, but that wasn't the issue- I suspect it fell out of place on one of the later attempts. But, it's all back together, the gearbox runs smooth (again, by hand, at the moment) and the clutch, with a very preliminary adjustment, works properly and disengages correctly.

Still have a lot of work to do to the machine, but getting this out of the way is a huge relief.

I would like to thank everyone who offered suggestions. They may not have been the eventual solution (especially our resident windbag suggesting the drag is a "feature") but they helped narrow down what it wasn't.

Wish I'd known all this beforehand, but that is, after all, why I post build threads- so others can learn from my mistakes.

Doc.

calvin b said:

Does the cam on the engagement handle have a set screw or an adjustment?

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-No. I'd actually been wondering about that when you mentioned the thrust bearing. I was surprised there was nothing to adjust, no shims, etc... I just didn't think it all the way through.

(In my defense, I have a LOT of irons in the fire at the moment. )

The thrust bearing pushes on the shaft to 'preload' the clutch a tad, and then the cam action of the engagement lever finishes the job.

I really had little idea of how it worked, going in, but now it's quite clear and surprisingly simple. It's kind of surprising to see something that elegant from 1939, but then you have to remember that Warner & Swasey started making turret lathes in 1881. So by '39, they'd already been making and refining the design for nearly sixty years.

sfriedberg said:

Doc, what locates the grey clutch cone along the shaft?

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-There's a step. The drawing suggests the cone is seated away from the step- and my coloring doesn't help- but in reality, there's a step in the shaft that it seats hard up against.

Is it possible that it simply needs to be driven a bit further to the right to free the clutch when not engaged?

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-I spent this entire time assuming just that. (And yes, I know what the acronym means. ) I was figuring that either the bronze gear needed to be allowed further to the left (in the drawing, towards the operator in reality) or the cone needed to be allowed further to the right.

At times I contemplated doing a little cutting- thinking I needed to push the shoulder on the shaft back, or cut down the collar (the blue bit) or something similarly drastic. But of course this thing arrived more or less perfectly functional- the gearbox was filthy with old grease and gunk, but everything in there was in excellent shape. (Save the parts I beat to death with a hammer, but we'll set that aside for the moment. )

I kept coming back to the fact I shouldn't HAVE to "cut" anything. And of course darn glad I didn't- last thing I needed was to screw this thing up even more.

Doc.

Hey Doc, Sir
Congrats on working things out ! I thought it would be something simple. The W&S service manual only has three lines about the whole drive clutch on the ram. Something to the effect of turn #12 til it works and that's all... I was hoping you wouldn't have to do an 'exploratory' to get to the issue.. but sometimes ya just gotta do what needs done.
Your tenacity is inspiring. I would of had to walk away for a bit..
Stay safe
Calvin B

DocsMachine said:

No sense in moaning about it.

Apart, again!

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Hi Doc,

Thanks for posting these photos. I have a #3 which will be quite a bit different, but it's still nice to see photos of these things disassembled.

May I ask the purpose of the original disassembly? Was there a problem with the machine, or did you just want to do a thorough cleaning and inspection? Also, did you need to replace any of the parts? And if so, were you able to purchase them, or did you have to machine your own parts?

I'm guessing that the large brass worm gear that drives the power feed is the most vulnerable to wear. I'm assuming that's the pinion right behind it in the photo.

Also where are the clutches in this turret? The only thing I see that looks like it might be a clutch of some sort is the cone-shaped object just in front of the main casting. I see from other photos you've posted that this cone-shaped object fits inside the brass worm gear. Is that the clutch? Does it just ride against the coned surface of the brass worm gear? No clutch pads or anything like that?

Thanks.

Sweet Dreamer said:

May I ask the purpose of the original disassembly? Was there a problem with the machine, or did you just want to do a thorough cleaning and inspection?

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-It was very much a "snowball" situation.

My machine has an "automatic" collet closer/bar feeder arrangement. It's run by an electric motor, but the motor has been long gone. Previous owners used a manual-bypass lever that's really only intended to use while setting up a run for the first time- it works, but they eventually badly wallowed out the hole in the yoke casting.

I wanted to fix that properly- that is, set up something that's a lot closer to a proper collet closer- but that was going to require opening up the whole left-end mechanism, which, really, needed to be cleaned out of chips and swarf anyway.

When I pulled that off, I found the main casting was badly cracked- and had been rewelded, which also cracked. That forced me to strip the paint, grind/weld, etc. and then repaint.

Under the collet/bar-feed, of course, is the gear drive for the feed rod. This, too, was chock full of old grease with embedded chips and junk, so I wanted to clean that off, too. After painting the castings for it, I decided I'd go after the dry, flaking paint on the main headstock... and it all snowballed from there.

The fact is, the gearbox worked fine, near as I could tell. If I'd had a jet-wash machine or a hot-tank I could have dropped the thing into, intact, to clean it out, I would have. But it was the last dirty piece on a machine that was otherwise now clean and freshly lubed, so I figured I'd pull it apart, give it a thorough cleaning, paint it, etc.

Overall, I'm glad I went through the effort. There were plenty of places where just running it as-is would have eventually caused damage due to the swarf-filled grease, packed dirt in the gear teeth, etc.

Also, did you need to replace any of the parts? And if so, were you able to purchase them, or did you have to machine your own parts?

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-In the overall rebuild, or just the gearbox?

Actually, the answer is basically no for either one. Basically, almost every factory part was still pretty cherry, or at least usable. I replaced the oil pump drive belt (as per my now-closed overall build thread, that I'm considering reopening if Thermite will keep his fat-fuck face out of it) because the original was a badly-spliced replacement that I felt was too loose.

The only other things I've replaced have been the occasional bolt or setscrew.

The only actual repairs I've had to do was the aforementioned welding of the closer chassis, and making a repair insert for the gearbox casting I stupidly broke.

I'm guessing that the large brass worm gear that drives the power feed is the most vulnerable to wear. I'm assuming that's the pinion right behind it in the photo.

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-You're correct in that's the pinion, but the fact is, both worm and gear are cherry. I won't say "zero" wear, but if you'd shown them to me cold and asked ho much use they'd had, I'd have said "minimal". If they're original- and of course there's no way to prove they are- they're in fantastic shape. There's virtually no wear to the hardened steel (and polished) worm, and barely-noticeable wear to the gear.

I have no doubts that with proper lube and care, those parts will long outlast me.

Is that the clutch? Does it just ride against the coned surface of the brass worm gear? No clutch pads or anything like that?

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-That's correct. It's a cast iron cone inside a presumably-bronze gear. There are no replaceable pads, and both surfaces are cherry. There's no grooving, no scoring, no nothing.

When properly used and set, it's well-lubed with oil, and when disengaged the two coned surfaces don't contact each other.

If anything on this machine might have indicated a later refurbishment, it's that clutch. But even if the machine were refurbished at some point- no way to tell- it still got extensive use after that, judging by the massive amounts of dirty, swarf-filled grease I scraped out of every nook and cranny.

So all I can say is don't worry about the clutch. Make sure it's set and lubed according to the manual, and chances are, it'll outlast both of us.

Doc.

DocsMachine said:

I replaced the oil pump drive belt (as per my now-closed overall build thread

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That's a nice thread. I'll have to glean over that one. Sorry to hear that it became infested by termites.

I might start a similar thread like that myself. Although I'm not planning on rebuilding my entire lathe. Right now I'm looking into taking the cross slide off to see what the issue is with it. It appears to have about a 1/4" slop between moving forward and backward. This seems like too much to be just worn threads. So I'm thinking that maybe the lead screw nut might have come loose somehow? I won't know until I disassemble it.

If I do that I'll start a thread on the project and take lots of pictures.

Sweet Dreamer said:

I might start a similar thread like that myself.

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-Please do.

I've taken to posting "build threads" like that because I, personally, have found similar threads done by other people extremely helpful over the years.

And, it should be said, had I a similar thread to go by on this gearbox, I probably wouldn't have broken that part and figured out the drag issue sooner.

I've had a ton of people over the years contact me about info from my various builds, and I'm glad to see the data has helped others.

Doc.

My lathe is still on the trailer. At least it's inside my garage. But my garage is very small. Two cars can fit in it, one in front of the other. But that's about it. Not much room to get around them. I do sometimes work on cars in the garage, but I usually need to park one side close to the wall so I have room on the other side to actually work on it. Certainly not the ideal conditions for working on cars.

Fortunately I can get all the way around the lathe. I just now came in from inspecting the cross slide screw. I read the manual for disassembly and it was very easy. Everything came apart as it should and I was able to remove the cross slide. I see there are a lot of oil channels in there and they did have oil in them which is a good sign. None the less it could be cleaned up to be sure.

In any case, I was able to take the cross slide screw out and inspect it. That is where all the play is coming from. It appears that the screw itself is worn. You can visually see it in the threads without any need for any fancy measuring devices. I could not remove the brass nut. I took out all the screws that hold it in place. And there appears to be a single large screw thread in the middle for pulling it out. That screw hole must be for a puller because it doesn't appear to be there for any other reason.

I screwed a 3/8-16 bolt into the brass nut but couldn't budge it by hand. I'll probably need to make a puller to get it out.

In the meantime I notice that the lead screw seems to be very snug at the far end (where it's seldom used), so that suggests to me that the nut itself might still be in fairly good shape? It only appears to have play when the cross slide is in a position where the lead screw itself is worn.

In any case, I quickly reassembled everything for now as I'm not really ready to work on this. I just wanted to inspect it, and I don't want to misplace the parts, so the safest place for them right now is back where they belong.

So it's all back together. I'll probably need to make a new cross slide screw for this lathe. I won't be able to make this lead screw on my other lathe because it's not big enough. It's only 15" between centers according to the manual. More like 12" if your lucky in the real world.

I'll need a lathe that can deal with at least 24" of cutting travel or more. I guess I'll have to buy another lathe.

NOTE: I didn't take any photos tonight because my camera refused to cooperate. It acts like the batteries don't have enough power, but they're brand new batteries. It turns on but then shuts right back off again, just like it would if the batteries were dead. Yet another troubleshooting adventure!

Sweet Dreamer said:

In any case, I was able to take the cross slide screw out and inspect it. That is where all the play is coming from. It appears that the screw itself is worn. You can visually see it in the threads without any need for any fancy measuring devices.

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-Yep, had a couple of machines like that. The kind where you can see the wear from across the room.

I'll probably need to make a new cross slide screw for this lathe.

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-I don't know what the No.3 screw looks like, but the common trick for something like this is to modify or graft on a piece of commercial, over-the-counter ACME rod. On one of my machines, it was a simple matter of turning the rod down, as the end features were all smaller OD than the thread root. (Or close enough it made no difference.)

On one machine, an old late-thirties surface grinder I rebuilt, I cut the old threads off the rod, drilled the end of the remainder (the part where the bearings and handle went) pressed in a piece of ACME rod, and TIG welded them together. I had to do a little straightening, but overall, it worked a champ.

Either way, you should be able to do the work with your existing small lathe, as the screw should be able to fit through even a small spindle bore.

Doc.

DocsMachine said:

-I don't know what the No.3 screw looks like, but the common trick for something like this is to modify or graft on a piece of commercial, over-the-counter ACME rod.

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Yeah, that's probably the best way to go on this. The actual threaded part is almost 2 feet long, but the entire shaft is closer to 3 feet long. I could probably get a 2-foot long section and graft it onto the original handle shaft.

DocsMachine said:

Either way, you should be able to do the work with your existing small lathe, as the screw should be able to fit through even a small spindle bore.

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I have a really strange lathe. It has a 17.5" swing, but a very small spindle bore of only 3/4". This small spindle bore is a major pain on a lot of projects. I didn't measure this W&S cross slide lead screw, but visually it's very close to 3/4", or maybe even larger. So I'm not sure whether it would fit or not.

Actually it it can fit inside the spindle bore I could cut the ACME threads myself. I would just need to cut them in two or three sections. That's an unorthodox operation to be sure, but it is possible. You can realign the thread cutting tool pretty well by simply setting it up in the previously cut portion of the thread. It won't be as perfect as an uninterrupted cut, but it should be usable.

The question now is whether it will fit inside the spindle bore. I'll try to find time to look into that today.

I wonder how much a 2 foot piece of ACME thread would cost? Probably more than I paid for this lathe!

Oooooooo! Not bad! I just looked it up on McMaster-Carr. Not sure of the exact size I'll need but a 3 foot length of 3/4-8 is only $15 for carbon steel, or about $60 for alloy steel. That's not bad. I'd have to pay almost that much just for a blank rod. May as well go for the ACME all thread.

I'll have to check the exact specs on my thread and double check it later. If I could pick something up for $15 I can't pass that up. I'd probably go for the cheaper carbon steel since I don't plan on using this lathe for any extreme production runs. It's just going to be basically a hobby lathe. If I wear out the cheap rod I can bite the bullet and replace it with a better one later.

I don't mind spending 15 bucks on this repair. I don't want to put a lot of cash into this lathe if I don't need to. That would defeat the original reason I bought it.

It's just a toy for me. I doubt I'll be making any money with it. And, like I say, if that ever comes to pass, I can always spring for a more expensive rod at that time. It's simple enough to remove and replace on the machine.

I just went out and measured the screw. It appears to be 7/8-6. Surprisingly that's basically the same price at McMaster Carr. I'll have to go that route then. 7/8" won't fit in my 3/4" spindle anyway. See, that small spindle bore on my lathe is a real bummer. Thank McMaster-Carr for having ACME all thread at reasonable prices!

Problem solved. I'll just hack off the threaded section of the existing lead screw and graft a new piece of threaded rod back onto it. The problem is that I basically need to use the Warner & Sawsey lathe to do it since it won't fit into the spindle bore of my other lathe.


I'm currently drooling over two South Bend lathes at HGR. They are both South Bend lathes. One is 12" x 62" and the other is 16" x 56". They want about $1700 each. Too much for my bank account. I'd love to find a lathe like that for $300. But I know that's not likely to happen. I have seen similar lathes go for under a grand though. Someday I might get lucky and find one I can afford that's not too far away.