A Warner & Swasey Fan - Just bought a No. 3

DocsMachine said:

Have you found out when it was made? John O. should be able to look up the serial number for you.

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There is some original paper work in the electrical box. Full schematics that are clearly very old paper. They are dated 1953, 1958, and 1959. So I'm guessing this lathe was made in the late 50's early 60's.

Serial number is 1561063

I've done several searches on the Internet for Warner & Swasey serial numbers and all I find are reports that they weren't kept track of, or there is no data base for Warner & Swasey serial numbers. So if John O. can look this up I would love to know where he found the data base.

DocsMachine said:

There's a huge supply of the machines, and no one wants them. So they either get sold to guys like you or me for pennies on the dollar, or they get scrapped.

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Well I have no regrets about buying mine yet(fingers crossed on that one). I'm glad to have saved it from the scrap yard. I almost bought a second one at a similar price just to have spare parts. It's gone now. Don't know if they sold it or scraped it. The main reason I didn't buy it is because I only have one trailer. LOL

In any case, about the only operation this lathe can't do relative to an engine lathe is threading with a quick-change gearbox. That's really about the only feature it's seriously missing. Other things like not having a compound rest are no big problem. You could easily add a compound rest.

I've been reading though a book entitled "How to get the most from your Warner & Sawsey Turret Lathe" It offers a lot of hints on how to do specific operation including turning tapers. In fact using the method they suggest you could actually make fixtures to cut fancy profiles.

I mean, it can do a lot as a job-shop lathe why more machinists aren't interested in these I really can't understand. But good for me that they aren't, otherwise it would have never sold this cheap.

In fact, I already have some "milling" operations I would like to use this lathe for. I say, "milling" because the operation involves placing the cutter in the headstock and the workpiece on the cross slide. This obviously has great limitations relative to a regular milling machine. But it can do two operations really well:

1. As long as you only need to move the workpiece directly back and forth (like milling long slots or fly cutting a surface, it will work great. You just won't be able to raise or lower the work piece easily without building a special table for that.

2. Used with a dividing head on the cross slide it can also be used to cut gears, sprockets, or other operations where the dividing head is used to turn the part at precise angles or degrees.

I can see myself using this option quite often actually. So this will double for me as a fairly useful milling machine. Albeit somewhat limited in what it can actually do as mill.

In short, with a little imagination and some homemade fixtures I'll be able to use this machine to do quite a bit of what I would like to do. It's certainly not a machine to walk away from thinking that it's obsolete or useless. It's a powerful machine that has a lot to offer an open-minded machinist who has a working imagination.

Looking at it as "just an obsolete turret lathe that was once used for mass production" is really the wrong way to view it.

It really has a lot of potential as a useful job-shop machine.

As far as I can see, about the only thing it won't do is cut threads using the lead screw.

Most “standard” atf fluids like Dexron are a 30 weight base oil.

Back in highschool When my main seal went out in my Lexus sc300 I started feeding her gallons Of 10w30 and it was none the wiser, ran fine.

I’m sure regular 10w30 will sludge up after 50k miles in a tranny but I put at least 20k on it like that and she never quit.


It was the neutral bangy I did out front of school that welded 1st gears clutch pack together.

When you put it in neutral after that it would drive in 1st gear only...

Sweet Dreamer said:

Serial number is 1561063

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-Hopefully John O. can chime in, but I suspect you're right with the estimate of the late 50s.

So if John O. can look this up I would love to know where he found the data base.

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-No "database", I'm given to understand he has a series of books that detail things like serial numbers and production numbers.

I mean, it can do a lot as a job-shop lathe why more machinists aren't interested in these I really can't understand.

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-Easy: Because with a clever operator, and with a lot of work and some specialized tooling, a decent turret lathe can indeed do much of the work of a conventional engine lathe, but the simple fact is, that conventional lathe can do more, easier.

Having a decent turret lathe, especially one with something close to a conventional carriage like yours, is certainly better than having no lathe at all, but it's still severely limited compared to a proper engine lathe.

Doc.

Hey 'Dreamer? Did you say you had a wiring diagram inside your electrical enclosure? I skimmed the thread again, but didn't see the mention.

I know you said some documents were missing, but if there's a wiring diagram of any kind, could you shoot me a high-res photo of that and either post or or PM it to me?

Much appreciated.

Doc.

DocsMachine said:

I know you said some documents were missing, but if there's a wiring diagram of any kind, could you shoot me a high-res photo of that and either post or or PM it to me?

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I don't see any copyright information on them so I see no reason why I can't just post the photos. Plus considering their age copyright probably wouldn't apply at this point anyway?

It will take me a while to do this as these are large drawings. About 3 feet by 2 feet.

1. My hi-res camera seems to have died.
2. I do have a digital camcorder that also takes still shots so I'll try that.
3. I'll have to find a place where I can lay these out for the shots.
4. I'll take four main shots. One of each schematic/drawing.
5. Then I'll probably also need to take about 3 or more photos of just close-up sections of each schematic so you'll be able to see the details and read the fine print.

We'll see how it goes. I'll probably do this outside in the sunlight. It's supposed to be sunny this week so I see if I can squeeze it in. I'll put the camera on a tripod to get the best pictures possible, but this camera isn't near as good as my hi-res camera that appears to be dead. I post the pics when I find time to do it.

If it'd be easier, you could mail them to me. I have some very good cameras, and some fixtures specifically for recording large documents like blueprints.

I'd copy them and send 'am back, probably within a week.

Doc.

DocsMachine said:

If it'd be easier, you could mail them to me. I have some very good cameras, and some fixtures specifically for recording large documents like blueprints.

I'd copy them and send 'am back, probably within a week.

Doc.

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Yeah we can do that. I just now took photos of them outside using a tripod to steady the camera. The results are blurred and unreadable. I even took smaller sections of them but those too are blurred and unreadable. I would need to take even smaller sections like 10 pictures of each schematic just to get pictures that are readable. So that's not even realistic. Although you could print them all back out again and past them all together. But what a pain!

PM me your address and I'll send them off to you. But I will definitely need them back! The pictures I took are not readable. Too bad my good camera died I know it would have take good pics.

By the way, you don't need to send me the originals back unless you want to. If you can send me full size copies instead that would actually be better for me. These original drawings should probably be donated to a machinist museum or library. They are a bit fragile to work with and already have a few rips. Fortunately they are strong enough I was able to handle them without damaging them further. But they are on the brink of serious deterioration. So for my purposes fresh copies would actually be far more practical. But don't toss the originals out. Surely there must be a machinist museum or library that would love to have them. Or maybe even a private Warner & Swasey collector or enthusiast would want them?

I will need readable schematics back though. I'm going to be going over the electronics on this lathe and these schematics are going to be extremely useful when I go to do that. And these pictures I took are useless, so when I send these schematics to you I'll have nothing.

So if you choose to keep the originals, PLEASE send me clearly readable copies.

Big high res photo copies are the best way to preserve them forever. Mike Muha's high res photos were an absolute essential for my repair work on the Sidney. Truly couldn't have done it without. So sending them of to Doc would do many folks a good favor I'm sure.

I can't speak for Doc (we know what happened last time ) but I doubt he'd hoard drawings up in Alaska for the only W&S in the state.

ClappedOutBport said:

I can't speak for Doc (we know what happened last time )

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Now I need to know,....

So what happened last time?

I don't want to end up with no schematics for my lathe.

I'm going to by buying some new batteries for my hi-res camera. Hopefully that will resurrect it from the dead. If so I should be able to take some crystal clear photos of these drawings with that camera.

As long as I have schematics to work with I'm cool.

But I don't want to be without any schematics at all.

I was asked for repros of a manual for a grinder a while back. I took them to Officemax and had them scan them on a large format scanner and make hi res jpegs and pdfs to send to the recipient. I am also very reluctant to send originals, few folks seem to respect them. Not commenting on Docsmachine by any stretch at all, just my experience here is most who have contacted me here on PM seem to think these things should all be done for free because this is a 'hobby' site. That includes from folks working for large corporations like Toyota. //rant off// Once you post here that you have them you'll get PMs for them from lots of folks who never post here.

If the resolution problem for images ever gets fixed here this would be a great place to post them online.

Mud said:

I was asked for repros of a manual for a grinder a while back. I took them to Officemax and had them scan them on a large format scanner and make hi res jpegs and pdfs to send to the recipient. I am also very reluctant to send originals, few folks seem to respect them. Not commenting on Docsmachine by any stretch at all, just my experience here is most who have contacted me here on PM seem to think these things should all be done for free because this is a 'hobby' site. That includes from folks working for large corporations like Toyota. //rant off// Once you post here that you have them you'll get PMs for them from lots of folks who never post here.

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I wouldn't send them to just anybody. I don't personally know DocsMachine but he comes across in his posts as quite knowledgeable and sincere. He has also started some pretty impressive threads explaining how he has restored various projects. Finally with 2111 likes I think it's a fair bet that he's a fairly likeable guy.

As I say, I'm not too concerned about the original drawings other than I would like to see them find a good home, preferably in a machinists museum or library. I'm not a collector so hanging on to the originals is not something I consider to be important. I doubt they would add much to the value of the lathe if I ever go to sell it. But having readable copies of these valuable schematics would be a huge plus. I already have several manuals for it in PDF format. But these particular schematics came with this lathe. They were in a pocket in the electrical cabinet. Not sure if I could find them online anywhere, especially these specific schematics that came with this lathe.

So while I'm not concerned with the original parchment, I am concerned with keeping the information that's printed on them.

DocsMachine stuck me as a person who might see the value in the originals and see to it that they find a good home? So I'll let everyone PM him for the original docs.

As long as I end up with readable copies I'm happy.

I have the batteries for my hi-res camera on the charger. I'll try to bring it back to life tonight and see how that goes.

So if you choose to keep the originals, PLEASE send me clearly readable copies.

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-What I plan to do is once they're imaged (it'll be a photo, not a scan, but for general purposes, the difference is irrelevant) I'll offer the original high-res file (basically uncompressed, 18 to 30 MP) a smaller file as compressed as I can get it and still have it readable (for people with slower connections, or trying to read it on a phone or tablet) as well as a digital copy, something simplified and maybe color-coded for clarity.

I wouldn't mind keeping the originals, if you don't mind. I'm already something of an old-books hoarder.

I can't speak for Doc (we know what happened last time[.])

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Now I need to know,....
So what happened last time?

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-He means from my turret lathe thread over in the Antiques section. Thermite, who is a major attention-whore, as you've found out yourself, but produces no original content of his own, has to bluster and bellow his way into other people's popular threads in order to get his ego boost.

It's bad enough 98% of what he posts is Grandpa-Simpson meaningless bullshit, but then he started answering other posters' questions directed at me. And when I called him on that, he feigned ignorance, and basically tried to bluster and bellow his way out of it.

And given all the crap I already have on my plate, I didn't have the time to argue. Since I wasn't interested in providing an attention-whore with yet another soapbox for him to blather from, I asked the mod from that section to lock it.

And to finish that story, I was contacted variously by over a dozen regulars here, who stated they were enjoying the thread, and asked if I'd reconsider closing it. After some consideration, I asked the mod to delete the worthless posts and reopen it.

If the resolution problem for images ever gets fixed here this would be a great place to post them online.

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-I have no problem hosting the files. docsmachine.com has been online and at the same domain for over twenty years now, and my current host (I had to move a few years back) has fat pipes and tons of storage. I have over 15,000 photos online as it is- my turret lathe threads have over 450 all by themselves.

So I'll let everyone PM him for the original docs.

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-I have no problem with that. I'm already kind of the repository of Nichols, Springfield and Stockbridge information.

Doc.

DocsMachine said:

-I have no problem with that. I'm already kind of the repository of Nichols, Springfield and Stockbridge information.

Doc.

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I had a sneaky suspicion you were a machinist community superstar.

I trust that you'll find a good home for the original docs.

None the less, just in case they get lost in the mail on the way to you I'd like to have some readable images of them before I ship them out. Worse cast scenario I'll take 10 or 20 close-ups of each schematic before I ship them out just to be sure.

That's a bit tedious but at least it will preserve the info. In the meantime I'm hoping my hi-res camera will come back online. That would make preservation much easier. I might be able to get enough detail in a single shot. I'd certainly get enough detail taking 3 or 4 shots of each schematic.

These camcorders I have seem to do nice for general video work, but they just don't have what it takes for reproducing fine print.

Sweet Dreamer said:

I had a sneaky suspicion you were a machinist community superstar.

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-Hardly. I am, at best, an enthusiastic hobbyist. I play with hobby machines and produce niche-market toys. Most of the self-proclaimed "professional" machinists look down on me because I don't have a shopful of less-than-five-year-old CNC turning centers that remove metal measured in tons per hour, and don't bill six figures a month.

But, I am also not here for their edification, I'm here for mine.

None the less, just in case they get lost in the mail on the way to you I'd like to have some readable images of them before I ship them out.

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-Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

These camcorders I have seem to do nice for general video work, but they just don't have what it takes for reproducing fine print.

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-Save for maybe 4K stuff, most video formats are far lower resolution and most decent digital cameras these days.

Put it this way; a 1080P video image/frame is something like 1920x1080 pixels. My Canon 1DX is 5184x3456 pixels. (Or technically roughly 2.0 megapixels vs about 18.1 MP.) Friend of mine has a Nikon in the 30MP range, so better than half again more.

You want a billboard-sized copy? We can make you one.

Doc.

DocsMachine said:

You want a billboard-sized copy? We can make you one.

Doc.

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That's the way my hi-res camera is. It takes pictures with such high resolution you could blow it up to the size of a billboard without loss of detail.

In fact, many people post images on Internet forums of that resolution which, IMHO, is a bit ridiculous. The resolution is higher than most computer monitors can even resolve. It's often times just a waste of file size. I try to reduce most pictures I take unless there's an important reason for that kind of detail. These schematics (and many mechanical drawings) do warrant the extreme detail because nobody likes to have to try to read barely readable text, electric symbols, or fine machining details.

So yeah, schematics warrant billboard quality.

With my failing eyesight I need things blown up that big just for me to be able to read them.

I have important information about my shop lathe, like threading gear configurations, etc, hanging in 8.5 x 11 picture frames around my lathe because I got tired of trying to read the fine print on the labels that came with the lathe. I print everything out in 28 pt font.

It's going to be a while before I can send these schematics out. I'm extremely hesitant about sending them out before I have some sort of back-up copies. There's too much good information on these to lose them.

I called a local copy shop to see what they would charge to make me some copies. They want $20 EACH! What? That would be $80 for 4 drawings. Then I had to ask myself why I need copies, and the answer is because I'm sending the originals to someone else. Then I had to stop and think if this is $80 I really need to spend.

Well, actually I wouldn't pay that much anyway, that's outrageous IMHO.

I'd cut them up into small sections and run them through my scanner before I'd do that.

Anyway, I'm back to trying to take photos of them again. This is going to take quite some time. It appears that I'll need to take about 25 photos of each schematic in order to get sufficient resolution to read them clearly.

Here's what I got so far. And these are just on the brink of being readable. This is also just a small part of this first schematic. I really can't spend all day today taking these photos.










I'm actually thinking of just redrawing them using KiCad. Then I'd have really nice schematics.

Apparently this lathe has five electric motors in it.

1. The main motor in the base
2. Pump Motor (I know where that one is) I think this is for the hydraulics
3. Coolant motor (I don't know where that motor is?) I though the coolant was pumped by the main motor.
4. Rapid Transverse Motor (I don't know where that motor is located on my lathe)
5. Index Motor (I have no clue where that motor is or what it does)

So I have a lot to learn about this lathe.

This is supposed to be a winter time project. I don't have time to take all these schema photos right now. I could just send these to DocsMachine and hope to get back readable copies. But man I'd hate to lose all this important information entirely! This is going to serve me well when I dig into this lathe later this winter. I'll need these schematics.

So until I get good back-up copies I just don't want to send them out. They might disappear into the void and then where will I be?

I think those prints are for a different machine. A lever head #3 doesn't have limit switches, a turret motor or a rapid traverse motor. I've never seen one with a hydraulic pump or a coolant pump.

Mud said:

I think those prints are for a different machine. A lever head #3 doesn't have limit switches, a turret motor or a rapid traverse motor. I've never seen one with a hydraulic pump or a coolant pump.

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Well, this one definitely has a quite large hydraulic pump. It's mounted on the side of the electrical cabinet. As far as I am aware it's only used for the hydraulic collet closer. But that's definitely on this lathe.

I agree that even my manual says that the coolant pump is driven by the main motor. And if this has any motors for rapid transverse or for the turret I have no clue where they might have hidden them. You're probably right on those two as well.

I'd be surprised if this lathe has more than the two motors I already know about. Although I suppose it is possible that there is a coolant motor hidden somewhere in the base. But I'm thinking that the coolant is driven by the main motor as the manual suggests.

It could be that this is a generic schematic that covers wiring for various machines? Some having options that mine doesn't have?

I don't really have time to look into this more deeply right now. I bought this lathe as a winter project and it's not winter yet.

I don't have time to pee with it right now.

I think you said those date to '59? That's the early days of NC, numerical control, and you pretty clearly have a diagram for a completely different machine. Regardless of the number of motors, you have no indicator lights anywhere, unless they're in the electrical enclosure.

I can almost guarantee you there's no motor in your turret drive, and I'm pretty sure the "index motor" runs the turret drive.

There's a later-model W&S machine of about that vintage, that has a pentagonal turret, that sticks out the front of the machine horizontally. The tools attach to that via dovetails, and the turret draws them in and out, to work against the spindle mounted below the "arm".

That was one of their earliest "automatic" machines- timers and relays rather than "computer" control, but still far more automated than a manual turret. I'd wager a guess that's closer to what you have. Cal posted a pic of his wiring diagram form a '41 No.3, over in my thread in the Antiques section and it's considerably less complicated than that.

Doc.

@ Doc,

That's what I'm thinking. I don't think these are necessarily the wrong schematics for this lathe, they probably just include all the available options and so you only need to use the parts of the schematic that apply to the lathe. It's kind of like a generic schematic.

Looking the schematic over more closely I see there are all manner of limit switches, etc. Those also would not be on my lathe. This lathe does have automatic feeds that are disengaged mechanically by stops, but that's not the same as having limit switches to control motors.

So I'm thinking these schematics I have are still applicable to my machine. All I need to do is ignore the options it doesn't have.

I think I'm going to redraw my own schematic using KiCad. I draw up schematics all the time for my robot projects so I can whip out a schematic pretty quickly. Then I can tailor the schematic to my lathe and even add my own notes etc. So that's what I'll end up doing.

In the meantime I'm pretty sure this schematic does include the main motor and hydraulic pump used on my lathe. There are quite a few large relays in the electrical cabinet. Clearly two of them are for forward and reverse of the main motor. There is also another relay for the two-speed control of the main motor. And then there are relays to control the hydraulic motor too. The control cabinet on my lathe is pretty busy just with these two motors.

I also may rewire it at some point. I don't see a switch for the hydraulic pump motor. As far as I can tell it comes on with the main motor. I'll want to make an independent switch for that one so when I use a chuck I don't need to have the hydraulic motor running all the time.

In any case, I don't really have time to study right now. I still haven't even fired it up. I need to build the RPC first.