Resurrecting 1960 10EE with 460V Sabina drive

charlieman22 · Oct 16, 2022

Gotten some further input.
Gaining a better understanding.
Looks like I have three options.

1. Set up a 208 single phase outlet - plug my current set up in - make chips.
Downside: my RPC is probably undersized, and defiantly noisy.
2. Loose the RPC/ use the building 3 phase. Aquire an up converting 3-PH Wye transformer with 208/416 delta.
3. Similar to 2, use a down converting transformer in reverse. May be more complicated to wire - needing "corner grounding". Some 3-PH converters apparently don't do this well?

Question revised: Could use some help spec'ing solutions 2 or 3.
Trying to get good results/control costs - of course.
Existing converter is down type, run in reverse - with buck boost (which I think gives me an additional 16-32 volts on my existing system.)

Better diagram of existing attached here.
Also - notes page from inside the RPC I found - showing it is wired for 440, and how the Buck up converts to 460 - I believe.
Posting here so its clear and I have it for my reference in the future.

charlieman22 · Nov 17, 2022

Think I have my solution.
Bought this off eBay for a reasonable deal - right before a cross country trip.
Guy said it would be unreasonable to ship from Tennessee to California.
I said: it's ok, I'll pick it up.
(long pause)
"Ok, we'll hold it for you".
And they did...

Gonna have to sort out how to wire - but think this is going to do the job for me.
Will be happy to use the 3 phase power - rather than make my own with RPC.
Plan to install in early Dec.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/media/screen-shot-2022-11-17-at-6-19-40-pm-png.349732/full

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/media/img_0519-2-jpg.349731/full

charlieman22 · Jan 7, 2023

10EEis in the shop - and transformer to be wired next week.
Two pieces of advice I'm looking for:
1. Is there any downside to opting for a 480V plug and receptacle over hardwire? (allows flexibility in moving unit for cleaning and restoring)
2. Transformer has a small box inside it. Not sure what it is? Some kind of monitor perhaps? Anyone able to identify/educate on this one?

pat pounden · Jan 7, 2023

charlieman22 said:
10EEis in the shop - and transformer to be wired next week.
Two pieces of advice I'm looking for:
1. Is there any downside to opting for a 480V plug and receptacle over hardwire? (allows flexibility in moving unit for cleaning and restoring)
2. Transformer has a small box inside it. Not sure what it is? Some kind of monitor perhaps? Anyone able to identify/educate on this one?

pat pounden · Jan 7, 2023

are you talking about the terminal blk.??

charlieman22 · Jan 7, 2023

Hi Pat.
Yes, the small terminal block with the arrow in the large picture.

The smaller pictures show the same block with more detail and wiring schematic.

This is neither the high voltage or low voltage inputs/outputs for the transformer - but does appear to be wired to the separate white coils.

charlieman22 · Jan 7, 2023

To clarify, that terminal block has wires leading to the three white coils, and then two wires coming off it connected to nothing.

It’s a mystery to me what they are or what should be done with them.

Cal Haines · Jan 7, 2023

There appears to be a pair of white wires leading from each of the three coils. The white wires are connected in series, via the terminal strip, with larger gauge gray and black wires connected to the ends of the terminal strip.

Can you post a better photo of the white diagram above the terminal strip? That might provide a clue as to what's going on.

Mr_CNC_guy · Jan 7, 2023

Could be a dropped phase detector? I 3 phase systems that use fuses, there is a possibility that 1 fuse will blow. That can cause real bad problems for the powered device. For example, a motor that looses one phase will probably burn up before the problem is noticed. Three-phase circuit breakers solve this problem, but back in the day everything was fused.

charlieman22 · Jan 7, 2023

Thanks Cal - see below.
- Yes - pair of white wires leading from each of the three coils. It may be a bit difficult to see - but there are then two black wires coming off the terminal block - that are not connected to anything at their other end.
- I've tried to zoom in on the diagram - see below.
- Close up below also show markings on the two black wires.

Mr. CNC - thanks. Perhaps. The question I mostly have is - what's best done with the loose wires that are not connected to anything. Perhaps just removed will be the answer.

Mr_CNC_guy · Jan 8, 2023

Given that drawing, I would speculate that the wires from the transformer connect to thermal switches inside each phase winding of the transformer. If that is true, then the loose wires should be in series with the main contactor. Thus, if any of the 3 windings in the transformer overheated, then the main contactor would open.
The fact that they are disconnected suggests that there is a problem with one of the thermal switches. You should be able to check them with an ohm meter.

charlieman22 · Jan 8, 2023

Mr_CNC_guy said:
Given that drawing, I would speculate that the wires from the transformer connect to thermal switches inside each phase winding of the transformer. If that is true, then the loose wires should be in series with the main contactor. Thus, if any of the 3 windings in the transformer overheated, then the main contactor would open.
The fact that they are disconnected suggests that there is a problem with one of the thermal switches. You should be able to check them with an ohm meter.

Ok.
Thank you.
I’m fairly green, but the explanation is good and the suspicion logical/sluethy.

I’m not certain where the main contractor is - I’ll have to take a closer look and see if I can spot. (Is it evident in previous pictures?)

Assume I can get an ohm reading by measuring any two wires coming off the coils. If one is far out of whack, then I likely have my culprit?

Thanks for the advice.
-CM

Rob F. · Jan 8, 2023

If I understand what Mr CNC said, those white wires are wired to thermal switches then each pair would either have contact or be open if the switch was stuck open (Bad switch). Then they would all be wired in series like an EMO circuit or even in the EMO circuit (EMergency Off) so if anything opens the contact opens and stops the machine. If that is right then to connect is fairly easy: Find the wires to your off push button and disconnect one of them, connect one end of the white wire daisy chain to that wire and the other end to the terminal where you took the wire off.

charlieman22 · Jan 8, 2023

Thanks.

Background.
I am in the process of wiring my 10ee.
This used transformer is new to me.
Previously I had an RPC converting to 3P.

New shop has 208 3P.
Transformer is 3P and wye and will be wired backwards to bring me up to ~416.

My Sabina drive should do the work from there I am told.

The 10EE does not have an EMO. Perhaps it should. There is a power shut off on the back side of the unit.
The transformer itself also does not have an emergency shut off - though I think you were referring to the lathe itself?

Cal Haines · Jan 8, 2023

I don't know about your Sabina drive, but motor controllers usually have a run enable input of some sort. I would wire the Thermoguard circuit in series with the controller's run enable, such that if one of the switches trips, the drive will shut down.

charlieman22 · Jan 8, 2023

The k you Cal.
Ok.
I think I have enough from above to do some research and help with my plan to wire this week.

Back in front of the machine on Wednesday. Will use above to steer me.

Thanks all. Will report back here.

Rob F. · Jan 8, 2023

You could also put a contactor in the 208 line supplying the transformer and the white wires would shut it down if overheating. You will want something to disconnect the xfmr anyway so it doesn't just sit there using energy when not in use.
This would be instead of shutting off the lathe motor. Just double check to be sure the drive can handle its elec supply being cut off while under load.

charlieman22 · Jan 8, 2023

Hi Rob.
Thanks. Some good thoughts there.

This lathe has been running for quite some time, wired into an RPC. The RPC had a shut off between it and the supply breaker. For anyone interested - there is a rough schematic on earlier posts.

The Sabina was happy being shut down by just turning off the RPC.
Suspect I’m ok there.

Current plan is to do the same with the xfrmr - so I can shut it off. Like your idea to incorporate the auto shut off is a good one. Thanks.

charlieman22 · Jan 12, 2023

Rob F. said:
You could also put a contactor in the 208 line supplying the transformer and the white wires would shut it down if overheating.

My basic understanding
Contactor will be powered by a 24V transformer.
The two black wires I show in pics above would theoretically loose continuity if one of the three 4XXV coils overheats. (I've tested - all three pairs of white wires, and the two black wires when tested, all have continuity at rest).
So If I put the "therm-guard" black wires in series with the transformer to contractor - it would shut off.

My question: can anyone give me an example of a 3P contactor that would have some form of on off switch - or would I wire in a EMO perhaps to use as a cut off?

Let me know if on the right track here.
Electrician comes tomorrow.
Plan to ask him the same.
Thanks for any insights.
-CM

Rob F. · Jan 12, 2023

Any contactor that is proper size should work. Just be sure the coil is 24v to match. Next question is where does the 24 transformer get its power? I might use 208v coil on the contactor which means you will have 208 line voltage going to the overheat switches and also the on-off or EMO switch that turns off the contactor. It is also not great to have more than one power source for a machine. That way the transformer wont be sitting there using electricity all the time. Food for thought...

Resurrecting 1960 10EE with 460V Sabina drive

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