Van Norman 22L Powerfeeds Help

JRock1000 · Aug 29, 2019

Got the cap off the bottom of the Feed Drive Assembly (third photo is looking up from underneath the knee, at the Feed Drive Assembly)

Then I got the collar off and the chewed up bearing cage

I guess I gotta pull all the bearings? I was hoping it would come out easy after I got the collar off

m-lud · Sep 1, 2019

All that gunk is in a lot of old machinery. oil and condensation or even some old cutting fluid. That will cause bearing failure. Maybe after you run it some change the oil. Im not familiar with the gearbox enough to suggest how to flush it out. Others may have suggestions. It looks awful dirty in there.
Thats why some members dismantle and clean before startup. It can prevet cronic problems. Its also time consuming and sometimes expensive replacing bearings.

JRock1000 · Sep 1, 2019

There's a good drain plug to Clean and flush the Knee Cavity.
Pretty convenient. I've swapped the oil, but I gotta get the gunk out of the bottom of the knee.
That's easy enough. At this point, I need to pull the Feed Drive tube and Gear assembly out to gain access, So I can replace the Bevel Gear and Shaft Bearing, and apparently the Feed Drive Assembly bearings too. I'm not sure how to pull the Feed Drive assembly.
The shaft goes up through the cavity in the back of the knee, and it's real hard to get hold of the tube.

The Red Arrow points to the Feed Drive Bearing in the photo, looking up from the bottom of the knee.
The Blue Arrow points to the tube that's in the way of removing the Feed Drive Gear. You can see in the second drawing, that it looks like it may be a separate piece, but I can't get good purchase on it to pull it apart.
The Yellow Arrow points to the Bearing that REALLY needs replacing (cause none of the other stuff is working without it), the Bevel Gear and Shaft Bearing, but I can't access it from the side of the knee, so the only way to get to it will be by removing the Feed Drive Gear and Tube. I think the whole assembly has to come out, But I'm not sure how to yank it out.

Brandenberger · Apr 18, 2020

JRock1000 said:
There's a good drain plug to Clean and flush the Knee Cavity.
Pretty convenient. I've swapped the oil, but I gotta get the gunk out of the bottom of the knee.
That's easy enough. At this point, I need to pull the Feed Drive tube and Gear assembly out to gain access, So I can replace the Bevel Gear and Shaft Bearing, and apparently the Feed Drive Assembly bearings too. I'm not sure how to pull the Feed Drive assembly.
The shaft goes up through the cavity in the back of the knee, and it's real hard to get hold of the tube.

The Red Arrow points to the Feed Drive Bearing in the photo, looking up from the bottom of the knee.
The Blue Arrow points to the tube that's in the way of removing the Feed Drive Gear. You can see in the second drawing, that it looks like it may be a separate piece, but I can't get good purchase on it to pull it apart.
The Yellow Arrow points to the Bearing that REALLY needs replacing (cause none of the other stuff is working without it), the Bevel Gear and Shaft Bearing, but I can't access it from the side of the knee, so the only way to get to it will be by removing the Feed Drive Gear and Tube. I think the whole assembly has to come out, But I'm not sure how to yank it out.

View attachment 264270
View attachment 264271

Did you ever end up replacing the oil seal for the feed drive sleeve (part no 9764)?

I'm assuming the oil seal was pressed into 2L-576, the cast iron cap screwed into the underside of the knee that the spline tube passes through?

I'm trying to fix some oil leaks from the bottom of the knee, I think it could only be from the elevation screw or the power feed.

Thanks,
Phil

JRock1000 · Apr 19, 2020

I haven't yet. Just haven't had room to pull the knee, and set it somewhere for a week or 2 while it's apart.
Working on making it, but it's the scenic route to get there

When I do, I probably ought to replace the seal from the knee lift too, because that has a small leak.
If you beat me to it, keep us posted on which seals to use.

Brandenberger · May 14, 2020

JRock1000 said:
I haven't yet. Just haven't had room to pull the knee, and set it somewhere for a week or 2 while it's apart.
Working on making it, but it's the scenic route to get there
When I do, I probably ought to replace the seal from the knee lift too, because that has a small leak.
If you beat me to it, keep us posted on which seals to use.

I pulled off the cap for the feed drive. Some more pictures:

The outer face of the cap:

The inner face of the cap, note that the oil seal is not a normal type, but is actually spring loaded and has a brass ring which rides against the collar assembly (but the spring loaded seal means this will be lubricated from above and press lightly on the metal to metal contact).

The collar (part no 2L-575) and bearings (part no 10557) as viewed from below the knee:

So needless to say, replacing the oil seal here isn't just a case of swapping to some contemporary oil seal it seems. So since I don't know it is leaking badly I'll just leave it as-is, having cleaned it out carefully.

-Phil

Brandenberger · May 17, 2021

Brandenberger said:
I pulled off the cap for the feed drive. Some more pictures:

The outer face of the cap:

View attachment 288574

The inner face of the cap, note that the oil seal is not a normal type, but is actually spring loaded and has a brass ring which rides against the collar assembly (but the spring loaded seal means this will be lubricated from above and press lightly on the metal to metal contact).

View attachment 288576 View attachment 288575

The collar (part no 2L-575) and bearings (part no 10557) as viewed from below the knee:

View attachment 288577

So needless to say, replacing the oil seal here isn't just a case of swapping to some contemporary oil seal it seems. So since I don't know it is leaking badly I'll just leave it as-is, having cleaned it out carefully.

-Phil

Hi,
Well after a year, and finally getting the oil back in the knee... the leak from this seal is significant enough that it needs to be addressed. Has anyone ever replaced this seal (part no 9764)?

As I documented a year ago in this thread, the seal isn't of a type I recognize.

-Phil

Brandenberger · May 22, 2021

I pulled the seal cap. It turned out I didn't need to pull the knee off. I was
able to move the ram to its rear-most position (to make clearance for the knee to come up past it), then raise the knee to its max
height. Then lock the knee. Then remove the 4 bolts holding the elevation screw
horn to the base, insert a threaded rod where one of the bolts went, and raise up
the horn. Then insert a few inches of steel support. Lower the knee horn base onto the steel, then unlock the knee and crank it up some more.

This approach could also be used if anyone needs to service the feed bearings in the base (there's another read on that elsewhere on PM).

That is enough space to separate the splined shaft from the splined tube, and get the cap and seal out.

And so the seal is a GITS shaft seal, marked DP-1500 1765-1855 618-68784. OD is 2.502. This seal is not a normal oil seal, rather it is a spring-loaded face seal that rides against the face of a threaded jam nut.

The shaft diameter is 1.421", so not a very standard size if I wanted to replace with a standard oil seal.

Now reading GITS site, it seems like these kinds of seals are meant to have replaceable components (springs, o-rings, etc.).

sfriedberg · May 23, 2021

Thank you, Phil. That's a task that's been on my "eventually" list for my VN #28A for ages. Now I have a clue how to proceed without laying the whole machine out on the floor. Although the knee elevation feed for the 28/38 is driven from above, in the knee, I still have a leak to fix around the elevation screw.

Brandenberger · May 23, 2021

sfriedberg said:
Thank you, Phil. That's a task that's been on my "eventually" list for my VN #28A for ages. Now I have a clue how to proceed without laying the whole machine out on the floor. Although the knee elevation feed for the 28/38 is driven from above, in the knee, I still have a leak to fix around the elevation screw.

I have a leak there too. Or, maybe I could say I have an automatic oiler for the elevation screw.

I found a doc somewhere (don't recall where) which was a service bulletin on replacing the screw on a VN 22L, 22M, etc. Maybe that would be a help? I uploaded it just now to VintageMachinery... should be there once approved.

As an aside, I think I found a seal that might work as a replacement for the GITS oil seal for the 22L feed-- it seems to need a 63.5mm OD x 36mm ID oil seal, so I ordered a Dichtomatik 36x63.5x9TC for $6. We'll see if that works better than the original GITS one.

-Phil

Brandenberger · May 26, 2021

Good news and bad news.

Gits actually still sells a compatible shaft seal-- part no 539-0150-024.

The bad news: $792.89.

So I think I'll give the $6 oil seal a try first.

sfriedberg · May 26, 2021

Ouch! That sounds like a "semicustom part, we make one when you order it" price. Let us know how the plain seal works out!

Brandenberger · May 27, 2021

Installed the Dichtomatik 36x63.5x9TC seal today, fits nicely and seems to hold oil.

As I said the original part was a face seal, running against what is probably a ground
face. This new seal is running against the female spline tube, which has some roughness
as is probably a turned part.

So time will tell if the seal wears prematurely, but it is a pretty easy replacement and is submerged fully in oil so should be well lubed...

Now to decide whether to fix the elevation screw leak. Which could either be a worn out seal
or failed sealant/gasket for the seal housing.
-Phil

JBSNC · Jan 5, 2023

I have an old Van Normal 2L that I recently aquired. Not running. I temporarily fixed wiring, added oil, fixed non working oil pump and got it running and made a cut with it as proof that maybe there is hope for it. I have proceeded to start cleaning it up. It's rough. The knee power feed drive mechanism looks identical to yours and is leaking a lot of oil from the knee. I like your approach of jacking the knee up with it's own screw spacing up on the base. Before I saw that, I removed the shaft by disassembling the horizontal drive shaft in base, removing oil seal housing and nut from top, pulling shaft down, going under machine and removing nut/washer from underneath and lifting shaft out.

I have the exact same seal dilemma as you. Just like you, I don't like the surface finish on the shaft where the seal will ride. I might smooth that portion out a bit before reassmbly. I will give the Dichtomatik 36x63.5x9TC seal a try. Is it still holding oil for you? It looks like your last post on this topic was 1.5 years ago. Thanks for posting this info by the way.

Brandenberger · Jan 5, 2023

I sold the 22LU, but it was holding fine. some minor leaking from various seals, but also mixing with normal oil coming out of the saddle.

JBSNC · Jan 6, 2023

That's good news. Thanks for your help.

Search

Largest Manufacturing Technology Community on the Web

Search

Van Norman 22L Powerfeeds Help

JRock1000

Aluminum

m-lud

Stainless

JRock1000

Aluminum

Brandenberger

Cast Iron

JRock1000

Aluminum

Brandenberger

Cast Iron

Brandenberger

Cast Iron

Brandenberger

Cast Iron

sfriedberg

Diamond

Brandenberger

Cast Iron

Brandenberger

Cast Iron

sfriedberg

Diamond

Brandenberger

Cast Iron

JBSNC

Plastic

Brandenberger

Cast Iron

JBSNC

Plastic

Similar threads