Project HBM-3" Forges de Gilley

Tyrone Shoelaces · Feb 25, 2018

alskdjfhg said:
It feels like the cover and shafts are separate. With the bolts out, the cover moves freely and is clearly blocked by the levers. No matter what what position they were in.

The gears shift and the input pulley can be turned by hand freely. There must be a separate clutch.

That's what I thought it might be as well, but if it is, it's really in there.

How complicated are these guys inside the spindle head? My guess would be packed right full of gears, especially with the boring/facing head.

Old time spindle frames are full of shafts, gears, clutches etc. They're not for the faint hearted. I came across a photo the other day of the spindle frame of a " Kearns-Richards " Wide Bed 50 that'd I'd taken apart years ago. It was still mind boggling even after I knew I'd done the job.

Regards Tyrone.

thermite · Feb 25, 2018

Tyrone Shoelaces said:
Old time spindle frames are full of shafts, gears, clutches etc. They're not for the faint hearted. I came across a photo the other day of the spindle frame of a " Kearns-Richards " Wide Bed 50 that'd I'd taken apart years ago. It was still mind boggling even after I knew I'd done the job.

Regards Tyrone.

Even after frequency-division, then later time division had replaced space division and 600 pair cables, the transfer to "subscriber" loop needed "distribution frames" of Siemon (US) or Krone (EU) punch down blocks, screw and hex terminals largely gone from the developed world.

First exposure to one of those, 11 feet high, ladder to service it, and the length of a long, long wall, one is Gobsmacked.

Discover it is actually rigorously orderly, same as the book, and has a built in logic to it, it isn't at all hard to find, then re-terminate a single designated circuit buried within it.

Marchant and Monroematic electro-mechanical digital calculators and complex machine tool gearboxes are much the same. One groks what they have to do, and how a particular maker went about implementing that.

Downside is one daren't break for lunch.

It will want re-training!

M. Moore · Feb 26, 2018

Did you remove the shifter handles to see if there is a setscrew buried inside there?
Can you lift the cover plate at all or shift it side to side at all?
It may be a combo of gear shifting and slight movement of the cover then another gear shift to get it off, but I am totally guessing.
Hopefully inspiring and helping you to the AH-HAH moment.

Nice forklift and good luck with that machine, working blind is tough.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Feb 26, 2018

Sometimes you remove things that you subsequently realise you didn't need to. If you haven't got the drawings that can always happen. On that cover plate you may be able to lift it off complete without removing the levers but I'd always try to release them first just in case.

As I keep saying in these circumstances when your working on old obsolete machines - there are only two rules. Don't lose anything and don't break anything.

Regards Tyrone.

RC99 · Feb 26, 2018

I will add a third rule now we are in the digital age.

Take plenty of photo's or video of how it was before and during the disassembly.

thermite · Feb 26, 2018

RC99 said:
I will add a third rule now we are in the digital age.

Take plenty of photo's or video of how it was before and during the disassembly.

+1 even before that - telco gateway switches. I carried a Sony micro cassette recorder and dictated notes and narrative. Left both hands free.

Also had a 35 mm camera that shot two frames at once for a double-wide color photo.
Used it turned sideways to document a 42U rack of equipment front, cabling, backside.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Feb 26, 2018

Yeah, you guys are spoiled now with all the modern aids like cell phone cameras. I had to rely on my Mark 1 memory cells plus plenty of sketches and marking up. I had those yellow marker pens plus an hand held electric engraving machine that got a lot of use.

Regards Tyrone.

thermite · Feb 26, 2018

Tyrone Shoelaces said:
Yeah, you guys are spoiled now with all the modern aids like cell phone cameras. I had to rely on my Mark 1 memory cells plus plenty of sketches and marking up. I had those yellow marker pens plus an hand held electric engraving machine that got a lot of use.

Regards Tyrone.

This was 25 year ago, and I WAS asked why I didn't just jot down notes.

Easy, sez I: "I haven't been able to read my own handwriting for years, but I can still understand my own recorded voice!"

Actually got the idea from Dad. He used a GI field telephone to announce each move he was about to make to another demo man or chat about methods whilst disarming German demolitions of the surprise-party tribe.

alskdjfhg · Apr 28, 2022

Wow I move slow.

After several years, picking up on this project again.

Last weekend brought it back into the shop, I moved it outside to make space while I moved a bunch of machines into the shop and set up the gantry crane.

Started tearing into it, trying to see how bad it is. Trying to determine if I wanna keep it as a manual machine, convert to a CNC or just junk it.

Inside the headstock looked ok, didn't see any major obvious issues, but thats where alot of my variables are.

Got into the spindle transmission gear box in the base of the machine, didn't look as nice as the headstock, but again, not glaring obvious issues.

Started to try and take out the table shafts in order to remove table, but pins are so incredibly tight in going to have to make some tooling to drive them out. I shattered a standard pin punch beating on them.

Thinking to tear hear apart as far as possible while its on the column, then remove it as it looks like the head has to be off to get into the feed and rapid transmission.

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Garwood · Apr 28, 2022

I know a shop that drug in a machine like that, sanded the rust off the ways and shafts, put power to it and has been making money with it for the past 25 years.

Stuff like that is so hard not to break stuff taking it apart.

Why would you "convert" a manual HBM to CNC? Why not just buy a CNC one with a fully integrated control and a toolchanger?

Tyrone Shoelaces · Apr 29, 2022

Garwood said:
I know a shop that drug in a machine like that, sanded the rust off the ways and shafts, put power to it and has been making money with it for the past 25 years.

Stuff like that is so hard not to break stuff taking it apart.

Why would you "convert" a manual HBM to CNC? Why not just buy a CNC one with a fully integrated control and a toolchanger?

Cost ?

Regards Tyrone.

alskdjfhg · Apr 29, 2022

The retrofit decision comes down to how many bad bearings its got running around in it. If it's a fairly minor effort to repair it as is, I'll do that. But if I gotta spend 10k replacing dozens and dozens of bearings/gear/shaft repairs. Gutting that out, putting in ball screws and drives would simplify alot of the machine

Having a small CNC HBM would be very nice, and be a cool retrofit project.

I'm about to start a CNC retrofit on a 6" Lucas HBM that died at work, but it'll be done very differently. Linear rails, spindle taper conversion, ect.

Cost is just one factor.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Apr 29, 2022

alskdjfhg said:
The retrofit decision comes down to how many bad bearings its got running around in it. If it's a fairly minor effort to repair it as is, I'll do that. But if I gotta spend 10k replacing dozens and dozens of bearings/gear/shaft repairs. Gutting that out, putting in ball screws and drives would simplify alot of the machine

Having a small CNC HBM would be very nice, and be a cool retrofit project.

I'm about to start a CNC retrofit on a 6" Lucas HBM that died at work, but it'll be done very differently. Linear rails, spindle taper conversion, ect.

Cost is just one factor.

It’d be the cost of the main spindle bearings that would worry me, even if you can still get them that is. I’ve worked on Hor bores with “ Timken “ main spindle bearings were I got the last pair !

Regards Tyrone.

alskdjfhg · Apr 29, 2022

Tyrone Shoelaces said:
It’d be the cost of the main spindle bearings that would worry me, even if you can still get them that is. I’ve worked on Hor bores with “ Timken “ main spindle bearings were I got the last pair !

Regards Tyrone.

The headstock looked very clean inside so I'm optimistic on the spindle bearings. But yes, this is my main worry as well.

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Gearclash · Apr 29, 2022

This guy has a bunch of videos covering the rebuild of a Forges De Gilly HBM.

THE IRONWORKER - YouTube

Garwood · Apr 29, 2022

$10k in bearings would be a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of a CNC conversion that is actually useful. The mechanical stuff is not difficult at all, though it has to be done right for the kinematics to work out. It's the control integration. It's the PMC side of things. That's what kills every retrofit not done professionally.

A real CNC HBM is a bargain compared to the work to convert.

Something like this: 4" KURAKI KBR-1105BX CNC TABLE TYPE HORIZONTAL BORING MILL. STOCK # 1060021 | eBay But with a toolchanger would be a great investment comparatively. I've seen 1980's CNC 4" HBM's sell for under $5k in excellent shape at auctions. I almost bought a Wotan 2 years ago for $3500.

alskdjfhg · May 1, 2022

These nasty bearings cleaned up nice. Cleaning them up and they felt plenty good to be re used

Figured out that the quill is moved from outside the headstock. This clamp moves the spindle by a multi pitch screw under the quill.

So once I get the jam nut and pin out, spindle bar will probably slide out

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alskdjfhg · May 7, 2022

Had to move the machine to have space to remove table shafts.

Got the rotary table off.

Thrust bearing is definitely worn, might leave it as is, but also thinking about scraping it in

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Tyrone Shoelaces · May 8, 2022

alskdjfhg said:
Had to move the machine to have space to remove table shafts.

Got the rotary table off.

Thrust bearing is definitely worn, might leave it as is, but also thinking about scraping it in

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If I was doing a major strip down like that the first thing I’d remove would be the DRO scales.

Regards Tyrone.

alskdjfhg · May 8, 2022

Got the base of the rotary table off. Kinda surprised the box ways measured about .0005 parallel. Not as bad as I thought they were gonna be

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