Deckel FP3–should I buy from Germany?

Peter from Holland · Dec 22, 2022

The active version has 6 yellow indicator ledlights just before the Y handwheel
These tell you which direction you must engage the feed according the program

Peter

BillE · Dec 22, 2022

FP4s - or at least the one and only I've seen here, have horizontal quills - FP4M based machines, no. Seems like you'd get your daily exercise running around the table on one of those too!

thavg said:
So, can this be done on the squareheads? I understand there is a rapid push-button so it's on-off. Can one creep to position with intermittent pushing of the rapid button? Or do you stop safely far from your work and then play with the variable-feed knob to creep to position?

Always use the rapid button intermittently in that circumstance here, never the feed control. I'd have to check, but I'm sure there's a slow feed button at the other end of the console too if nervous....which I don't think I've ever used.

AlfaGTA · Dec 22, 2022

CJBricks said:
All good thoughts--thank you. This is prob a rudimentary question, but do only Active machines have DC feed motor? My understanding is that later models all had it, not just Active. If that's true, how can you tell by looking at the machine...square head?...or do you have power it and see that the feeds run w/out main motor running?

Peter, thanks for the offer, but I really wanted the horizontal quill feed, which the FP4's sadly didn't have.

Easy tell if there is a feed shift dial on the side of the main column.
Late machines all had DC feed drive (FP 1,2 &3 plus the FP 4 MK )
DC feed motor is visible at the rear of the machine along with the maim spindle motor.
Further there’s no rapid feed lever

Cheers Ross

CJBricks · Dec 23, 2022

Thanks Ross. I just took a look at a few and quickly noted the differences. Yes, quite easy to tell now.

drcoelho · Dec 24, 2022

To OP: if I were in the hunt for an FP3 style machine, I would go for the latest model you could aquire, the DC feed is very useful, infinitely variable speed and very convenient. Actually, I would be looking at a new FPS machine like the FPS 630M-NC. There are many classes of machining problems that just can only be done with CNC. And while the idea of having both manual and CNC on the same machine is attractive, these days having manual only can limit what you can make.

AND, I'd also recommend you look at Kunzmann, very similar to the Deckel machines but all modern configuration and backed by an excellent company (now owned by Weiller who do the best manual lathes in germany). Kunzmann FYI has USA distributor (Monarch Lathes, who also source the Weiller lathes as well).

CJBricks · Dec 24, 2022

drcoelho said:
To OP: if I were in the hunt for an FP3 style machine, I would go for the latest model you could aquire, the DC feed is very useful, infinitely variable speed and very convenient. Actually, I would be looking at a new FPS machine like the FPS 630M-NC. There are many classes of machining problems that just can only be done with CNC. And while the idea of having both manual and CNC on the same machine is attractive, these days having manual only can limit what you can make.

AND, I'd also recommend you look at Kunzmann, very similar to the Deckel machines but all modern configuration and backed by an excellent company (now owned by Weiller who do the best manual lathes in germany). Kunzmann FYI has USA distributor (Monarch Lathes, who also source the Weiller lathes as well).

Much appreciated on the specific recommendations. I’ll certainly look into them. Thanks as well to others on this thread for the help.

Happy holidays.
CJ

AlfaGTA · Dec 24, 2022

Well if we are going toward NC my vote would be a “rebuilt”and retrofitted Deckel FP4NC, for my money the best “prototype mill ever made.
Retrofitted with aTNC Heidenhain control,gives the flexibility and versatility!
This would give ability to run the Deckel accessories (slotter ,corner miming attachment , precision boring attachment , high speed milling head, riser, angle ,angle milling head ect.
Not to mention the accessory tables (universal tilt & rotate.)
Get both horizontal and vertical spindles with sensitive quills. A proven and stable box way machine that would come in at lower cost than a new “lookalike “
These FP-NC’s are totally rebuildable and both Singer and FPS still support them
Cheers Ross

CJBricks · Dec 25, 2022

Gentlemen, I’m contemplating a nice FP4MK Peter is selling. I’ve been discovering a lot of its benefits, but a looming question I still have is whether optional FP2/3 heads (slotting, boring, high speed) can fit on an FP4MK? I found an old thread where a guy was asking if he could put an FP4NC head on an FP3–didn’t read as feasible—but that’s the closest. Also, I can’t find any images or read of anyone using the optional heads on either an FP4M or MK. One of my primary interests in Deckel is the range of capabilities with accessories, and I’d hate to limit myself by buying the wrong machine.
Much appreciated.
CJ

CJBricks · Dec 25, 2022

I should state before others do that I understand the FP4NC and M and MK’s are different. I only referenced that thread to demonstrate that I tried to research the topic as much as I could prior to asking the question to the group.

bsg · Dec 25, 2022

CJBricks said:
Gentlemen, I’m contemplating a nice FP4MK Peter is selling. I’ve been discovering a lot of its benefits, but a looming question I still have is whether optional FP2/3 heads (slotting, boring, high speed) can fit on an FP4MK? I found an old thread where a guy was asking if he could put an FP4NC head on an FP3–didn’t read as feasible—but that’s the closest. Also, I can’t find any images or read of anyone using the optional heads on either an FP4M or MK. One of my primary interests in Deckel is the range of capabilities with accessories, and I’d hate to limit myself by buying the wrong machine.
Much appreciated.
CJ

FP2/3 heads fit and have the proper gear pitch.......with that being said, IIRC, you don't pull the head off like on FP1.
You will need the shorter ram NC version of the High speed head, the other attachments have a shorter ram and will work.
You will also need the tables that fit the NC machines for the FP4M, the t-slot spacing is different than the manual FP2/3 machines.

The French site Peter mentioned in another thread has a manual for download.

Deckel FP4 M

Deckel FP4M manual - handbuch (complet: 354 pages, 111 Mo) Deckel FP4M part1 Deckel FP4M part2 Deckel FP4M part3 Deckel FP4M part4 Deckel FP4M part5 Deckel FP4M

passion-usinages.forumgratuit.org

Hope that helps.........

Kevin

CJBricks · Dec 25, 2022

Thanks Kevin.

Any obvious way to tell shorter ram NC version of the high speed head from other version by looking at it?

bsg · Dec 26, 2022

Need help identifying Deckel high speed head

Hi All, I know this question would be much more easily answered with images, but for the life of me, I cannot attach any (despite having done it numerous times in the past.) The problem is that I purchased a high speed head for my Deckel FP1 and it does not fit within the dovetail slot on the...

www.practicalmachinist.com

AlfaGTA · Dec 26, 2022

I would get Peter to verify the width of the upper dovetail on that FP4MK to be sure.
Earlier FP4's will not accept the powered accessories without "Shims" to close up the dovetail space. There was a factory part for this and its
detailed in some of the operators manuals.....Now the early FP4 is a bit different from the later versions so perhaps Deckel changed the dovetail to conform to
the same dimension as the FP2 and FP3.....The power drive is not an issue so long as you have the FP2/3 accessory.
Cheers Ross

CJBricks · Dec 26, 2022

Thanks Ross. I’ll double check with Peter. Also, you said, “The power drive is not an issue so long as you have the FP2/3 accessory.” When you say “accessory “ you are referring to the actual accessory head, not the “shims” you also referenced above, correct?
Thanks again,
CJ

BillE · Dec 27, 2022

AlfaGTA said:
DC feed motor is visible at the rear of the machine along with the maim spindle motor.

That applies to the M machines, the MK has the feed motor totally enclosed.

Here's the proper accessories for the 4M, some shared with the MA which may assist. Not that I've ever chased much, about the only pukka MK thing I've ever seen for sale has been a universal head and the outboard arbor horizontal support....which doesn't come with the machine stock.

CJBricks · Dec 27, 2022

Hey BillE, thanks for the images. Good to see the machine with different heads on it. I’m mainly just having an internal debate about how much I really want the horizontal quill. When/if I pay a lot of money for a machine, I want to make sure I don’t have any buyer’s remorse. I’d really like to avoid buying another one. Nothing original there, I suppose.

AlfaGTA · Dec 27, 2022

If you are going to run the machine hard in horizontal...slab milling horizontal arbor with overarm and outboard support+++ then the rigid spindle is your best choice....More perhaps rigid.
If you need a more flexible and capable machine better suited for light/med cutting, doing repairs and prototype work (that 's me) then the quill is a nice thing to have.
My FP4NC has the sensitive quill and i would be hamstrung without it......rigid spindle for me is a deal breaker no matter how "cool"owning an MK might be YRMV.

Cheers Ross

CJBricks · Dec 28, 2022

I really don’t do a lot of hard milling, esp in the horizontal plane. The main reason I began looking into Deckel (beyond its quality) is for the multiple options in one package, including the horizontal quill. The 4MK certainly interested me as I began looking into it, but I keep coming back to the horizontal quill. Once again, I appreciate your feedback.
CJ

Peter from Holland · Dec 28, 2022

The hor. quill I only see handy for co-drilling in the hor plane and aligning holes with a!indicator perhaps It has no powerfeed So for boring in the hor plane I see the Y axe more suited I do not do a lott of milling But I hardly have ever used it so far

Peter

AlfaGTA · Dec 28, 2022

I use the quill often. I do lots of repair jobs, having existing features. The sensitive quill works better to accurately touch off to establish datum’s etc.
It’s nice when back boring or or reverse facing. Of course drilling as well and spot facing /countersinking.
I use it to ease part alignment by touching to a straight edge layed across the face of a part to the face of the spindle nose or flat of my UPA3 boring head.
Also nice for power tapping. Just follow the tap with the quill movement.
Also it can provide the extra length to reach features (steps or recesses).
Have also used it to drive a home mandrel to finish a bore(stroking)
Handy for matching existing threads when doing a repair using thread milling.
It’s also pretty nice when plunging a small endmill, especially if you are unsure how sharp the tool is (you can feel the force applied ).
I could continue, but the point is it all depends on your work, for some it’s not a big deal. Remember there are hordes of “machinists” that wouldn’t consider to having both a vertical and horizontal spindle to be of any value.
Cheers Ross

Deckel FP3–should I buy from Germany?

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