Dialog 4 upgrade

rklopp · Dec 20, 2022

rimcanyon said:
A lot of the commands have allowance built in, e.g. G71,72,73,74 have parameters that define X,Y and Z finishing allowances. Then some of them also have a safety allowance in Z. In all the pocketing examples they call T1. So I am going to assume that A=0, as you both mention. Nice idea to use A and RA as finishing allowances (or compensation for an undersize cutter) in other code however.

You’ve got it. The canned cycles with built-in allowances let you avoid a T1*1 style of tool change to do finishing cuts.

On a side note, I would program all contour paths as local subroutines starting from G41 and ending with G40. That way, I could cut the path with any tool I wanted, just by picking the tool before calling the subroutine. This works nicely when you need to cut a path at multiple depths.

Martin P · Dec 21, 2022

rimcanyon said:
What is the middle pot for, labeled SW1?

Sollwert = Set-value / should-be value

The Bosch processes from -10V to +10V.
I think on this pot you set the maximum value to make sure that the control is not giving to much voltage to the drive.
I guess you have to move the xis at full speed and set the value.

When there are issues I have recently learned it can be useful to check what voltage the control is giving to the Bosch even at standstill. I had a control give constantly +8V to the z-axis. So on startup it would want to run away rather spectacularly.

AlfaGTA · Dec 21, 2022

rimcanyon said:
A lot of the commands have allowance built in, e.g. G71,72,73,74 have parameters that define X,Y and Z finishing allowances. Then some of them also have a safety allowance in Z. In all the pocketing examples they call T1. So I am going to assume that A=0, as you both mention. Nice idea to use A and RA as finishing allowances (or compensation for an undersize cutter) in other code however.

Don’t forget that the D4 can use a finish tool call any time that you are running under cutter comp.
By simply calling (ex) T1*1 will instantly applies the tool store (mode10) value of T1*1.
So for example or you are running a 1/2” cutter. The value of T1 would be “r .250.
If you add T1*1 with a value of .248” then the control will apply that value when called. (.002” added to the side cut) Nice thing is that the * value is applied without doing a tool change.
Cheers Ross

rklopp · Dec 21, 2022

AlfaGTA said:
Don’t forget that the D4 can use a finish tool call any time that you are running under cutter comp.
By simply calling (ex) T1*1 will instantly applies the tool store (mode10) value of T1*1.
So for example or you are running a 1/2” cutter. The value of T1 would be “r .250.
If you add T1*1 with a value of .248” then the control will apply that value when called. (.002” added to the side cut) Nice thing is that the * value is applied without doing a tool change.
Cheers Ross

But you do have to re-command the spindle speed and feed rate even though the spindle stays running when calling, say, T1*1 with T1 currently active.

rimcanyon · Dec 22, 2022

Thanks for explaining. I see the value of RA and A, nice example Ross. Rich, do you get a program error if you don’t reset the spindle speed and feed?

rklopp · Dec 22, 2022

rimcanyon said:
Thanks for explaining. I see the value of RA and A, nice example Ross. Rich, do you get a program error if you don’t reset the spindle speed and feed?

Yes, the Dialog complains “you forgot to set a speed and feed” even though you were just using a feed and speed.

AlfaGTA · Dec 22, 2022

rimcanyon said:
Thanks for explaining. I see the value of RA and A, nice example Ross. Rich, do you get a program error if you don’t reset the spindle speed and feed?

Well you don’t exactly need to reset the spindle RPM or feed rate if you are clever in your program.
The tool finish for me is usually used with a loop to repeat a portion of the program you can include the initial speed/feed block in that repeat loop.
Can use lots of tricks with D4: repeat ,jump,sub routine,macro and not the least parameter programming.
Cheers Ross

rimcanyon · Dec 30, 2022

I read through the D4 manuals (Operators Manual dated July 86 and software update manual dated 8.87). Lots of new commands and new Keyboard keys compared to D2). The documentation on a few things is missing, so my questions are related to those areas.

First, on page 1-2 in the operators manual, the description of the Dialog 4 control unit says “three interfaces for cassette recorder, tape reader, floppy disk storage (256 kb per disk) or Winchester disk storage (10 megabytes)…”

There is no description in the manual I have of the floppy disk or hard drive storage.

Second, section 1.5 in the Software Update manual has only two general pages on DNC. At the end it says “A detailed description of DNC operation woulds exceed the scope of this brief software update manual. In addition, DNC must in each case be adapted to the specific conditions prevailing at the user’s plant. If you plan to use your DNC Dialog 4 in operation, please contact our specialists at the Deckel factory who will take pleasure in letting you have additional information and giving you every support you may need.”

So my question is, does anyone reading this have additional information or later dated manuals with more coverage of these options? Ever seen an FP NC machine with floppy disk or hard drive? Ever used D4 DNC?

rklopp · Dec 30, 2022

If I ever read the bit about attaching floppy or hard disks to Dialog 4, I don't remember it, and never felt the need. My laptop worked fine for storing code. I never tried to use DNC on D4.

Mud · Dec 30, 2022

Here are my internal notes about serial comm with D4, gleaned from posts here and my own trial and error.

Deckel FP7 DNC Cable Config.


	9 Pin connector		25 Pinconnector
	Pin Location		Pin Location
	2	--->	2
	3	--->	3
	5	--->	7




	Cadem setup - 4800 N 7 2 Software
	Changed from 7/N/1 to 7/N/2 after installing highland USB device

Here's what the program must look like to transfer properly


$%1		Program name is 1

T1 R A L9.745 A	Tool Data

%
($%1/0000D8)	0000D8 represent the number of characters or bits, not sure which, from downloaded files only. Files created to upload should be ($%prog.name/000000) Add "xxxx after to have xxxx show on monitor - like this ($%prog.name/000000"xxxx)
N1 G17 T1
N2 S+1200 M3
N3 G0 X0 Y0 Z1.05
N4 G88 N*1 L2 R4.75 G3 W9 I0 J0 G1
N5 S0 T0 M9
N6 G0 Z20
N7 M30

N*1 G83 F1.0 S+1200 Z-1.4 Z-0.05 Z-0.01 Z-0 Z1

?
1A69		1A69 represent a checksum value present on downloaded files only. Files created to upload should have 4 zeros here - 0000

This didn't paste well, I hope it's understandable. I'm now using a Highland DNC USB to RS232 device to transfer files rather than a computer and serial cable.

Ross seems to understand the Dialog 4 DNC deal, it requires specific hardware and software to work.

I ~think~ the cassette recorder plugged into the phono jack on the underside of the console. Saw a photo of it once.

rimcanyon · Dec 30, 2022

Mud, thanks for the note about serial comms… Rich, I expect to use the serial comm port too, but I thought it interesting that support for a floppy and hard drive were originally intended. Whether it was anything other than vaporware is my question.

AlfaGTA · Dec 31, 2022

Deckel DNC is what I call “mock” DNC.
It is not a “drip feed” arrangement.
Requires both the latest control software, a hardware change (modified board) plus unique software (on your PC).
D4 is limited to 256k of program storage
It is also capped at 9999 blocks of code, Deckel DNC extends these limits by (1) first using software (PC) to break large programs up into smaller linked “bite sized” files.
When initiated the control calls the program and your PC begins to transfer the smaller files.
The transfer continues to fill available control memory, then the PC pauses as the machine begins running the code.
As the program is run, the used code is deleted from the control, making space for the PC to send more pieces of the full program.
The process is pretty seamless

Forget any other storage options, using the parallel port to and from the PC is the only viable choice.

Cheers Ross

rklopp · Dec 31, 2022

rklopp said:
Here's proof:View attachment 381182

Here's the corresponding New Machine Day post: https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/new-machine-day.409039/#post-4013988

Mud · Dec 31, 2022

Sentner said he was workig on a 512 K memory expansion for Dialog4, not sure where that stands.

rimcanyon · Dec 31, 2022

Rich, nice machine! I like the way the front of the garage came apart to fit the new machine. What are the details of the new machine?

DeadMahoDude · Jan 1, 2023

Apparently D4 has 1MB program memory limit, someone build 2MB card, where you can select either 1MB memory range before startup.

Deckel Dialog Contour CNC Speichererweiterung Memory upgrade

Deckel Dialog-4 Contour-3 CNC Speichererweiterung Memory upgrade CNC Speicher 3D Programme

www.scnct.de

NSP55 is only 256k with 32x8kB chips installed

https://www.scnct.de/bilder/deckel/Dialog_1-4_und_Contour_1-3/NSP55.jpg

NSP56 factory version goes up to 1MB, with 32x32kB chips installed

Deckel NSP56 Dialog-4 Contour-3 Speicherkarte Memory Board CNC

www.scnct.de

Deckel NSP56 Dialog-4 Contour-3 Speicherkarte Memory Board CNC

www.scnct.de

Both versions sometimes were shipped with reduced amount of memory/chips installed, AFAIK minimum is 4chips to get 32bit data bus, so 4x8kB/32K on NSP55, or 4x32kB/128K on NSP56.

rimcanyon · Jan 3, 2023

The D4 keyboard has a few keys that are not used for commands. I was at first hopeful that the parameter language included conditional logic when I saw the less than/greater than key, but no such luck. There are also a couple alphabetic keys that are not used as addresses or values, so I think they were included so that the entire alphabet was available for comments. Maybe thats also why the >/< key was included.

I also am finding it a bit confusing remembering when to use the Transfer key (with the ENT label in the photo above, which is how the machine came to me), the Acknowledgement key (looks like the Transfer key but with a J on the left side), the “=“ key and the “==“ keys.

AlfaGTA · Jan 3, 2023

rimcanyon said:
The D4 keyboard has a few keys that are not used for commands. I was at first hopeful that the parameter language included conditional logic when I saw the less than/greater than key, but no such luck. There are also a couple alphabetic keys that are not used as addresses or values, so I think they were included so that the entire alphabet was available for comments. Maybe thats also why the >/< key was included.
View attachment 383113

I also am finding it a bit confusing remembering when to use the Transfer key (with the ENT label in the photo above, which is how the machine came to me), the Acknowledgement key (looks like the Transfer key but with a J on the left side), the “=“ key and the “==“ keys.

AlfaGTA · Jan 3, 2023

Remember that programs in “Dialog” appear on screen left to right.
The < > keys allow paging from block to block. There are also instances where you need to select to the right or left such as in mode 13 when setting for the file transfer values.
Also don’t forget that in parameter programming you can use math expressions Sort of like Excell,which is a very powerful programming tool.

Cheers Ross

rklopp · Jan 3, 2023

Ross
Rim is talking about the greater than (>) and less than (<) symbols. Dave is right, there is no provision for logical tests (if-then) in parameter programming. Perhaps Grundig was hinting at a future software update that never happeded.
RKlopp

Dialog 4 upgrade

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