Simultaneous 5 axis on Doosan/Fanuc with DWO, TCPC, WSEC etc

LockNut said:

GKoenig, where did you get the idea that Doosan wasn't listening. The OP made no mention of not getting assistance from Doosan Australia and made no mention of Doosan not showing "interest".

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It would be the part where the OP directly says, "Doosan seems to show no interest."

gkoenig said:

It would be the part where the OP directly says, "Doosan seems to show no interest."

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My apologies, I did miss that sentence. But do you know how many times I have heard that?

gregormarwick said:

Well, that's the polar opposite to my experience buying a 5ax machine...

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Trust me, this company was bass akwards for sure!

gregormarwick said:

What's on Doosan('s affiliate agency) is that OP doesn't know how to use his machine, he has clearly received completely inadequate training.

From the OP:



As devil's advocate, it's obviously possible that OP's employers ordered a new 5ax mill from an unfamiliar mtb, with an unfamiliar control, and elected NOT to include basic training in the purchase.

Likely? I don't think so.

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Where is the OP anyway. Gregormack, you are assuming and you know what that means. Doosan policy is 3 days training free of charge, not including travel, at least here in the states. I don't know what they do in AUS.

And, my initial response was a reaction to gkoenigs over reaction without having the whole story. Which we still don't have because the OP is AWOL. But, my offer to him still stands. If he emails me, he will get what I have. I'm a pushover like that.

Paul

LockNut said:

And, my initial response was a reaction to gkoenigs over reaction without having the whole story. Which we still don't have because the OP is AWOL. But, my offer to him still stands. If he emails me, he will get what I have. I'm a pushover like that.

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I'm trying to figure out how I "overreacted."

No, he shouldn't literally be yelling at Doosan... but I was figuratively attempting to convey with directness that the sort of questions he is asking are 100% on the MTB/Reseller to be walking him through figuring out. That they would commission that machine and ask for a sign-off while the customer is posting code like that shows a total fail on their part to bring them up to speed on Fanuc/Doosan 5 axis programming.

I'm not even a 5 axis guy and I can look at both those code chunks and see the basic problem. You wouldn't let a customer under your purview get in a lurch like that, which is why I would be happy to buy a 5 axis machine from Doosan USA. How did your compatriots in Australia let this customer get so far off the rails?

As to returning the machine, I didn't say they should call a lawyer and start the process. I said that if they keep thinking Doosan Australia is showing no interest in helping them that the proper course on their end is to start telling Doosan that they are looking at starting the return process. This isn't like bringing a pair of jeans back to H&M for a refund; any MTB/Reseller starts hearing return talk, higher level folks at both organizations start getting involved, and they tend to try to figure out why the buyer's programmers/operators are not jiving with the MTB's apps engineers and they start hammering out the problems and getting things fixed.

Look, I think it speaks well to Doosan USA that you all would come on here and valiantly defend the honor of Doosan! I'm also keenly aware that plenty of customers on the buy side of the business are dumdums who like to blame the MTB/Reseller when they can't get a machine running the way they intended it. If the OP actually yells at their Doosan apps engineers? So be it... apps engineers should have some CBT training skills at their disposal when dealing with frustrated customers as it is part of the job. At least that will begin the path of getting that machine making good parts efficiently.

Wow, things got heated pretty fast in here. First up, a bit more information so that some have some better understanding. I came here because I have looked through dozens of posts over the years, and understand the wealth of experience. You cant buy a Doosan from Doosan Australia, all our machines are imported by resellers basically. The guys that import the machine here are a company called Hare and Forbes, and they do everything from hand tools, to CNC machines, from hammers to large multi-taskers. They have their own department of machine specialists who are meant to be able to help with queries. We included the learning package, but as I had experience on the Haas 5 axis, they tell us to figure out what you can on your own, and then they will help out with some of the more advanced logic. So the guys I am dealing with are not experts, and nowhere near as knowledgeable as the average 5 axis user on these forums.

The machine was a stock machine already here in Australia, and so comes pre-configured from Doosan how Hare and Forbes see fit. Why they decided to order in a 5 axis machine without some basic fundamental options is beyond me, but it was not set up for Dynamic work offsets etc from factory. The option was (I think) bought direct from Fanuc, and I think that might have caused problems with Doosan/Hare and Forbes because they don't seem terribly interested in helping for something which they didn't get to sell. Even though the option was turned on, none of the parameters were set for 7580 to 7585. After a few days of trying to work things out, and trying different things I came up with some numbers that have worked, and lasted my 9 months. Hare and Forbes couldn't give me values for a good week or more, and in the end the values they have given were incorrect. They ended up coming by the workshop when I wasn't here and took photos of my parameter setup after I explicitly told them they couldn't have my values that worked because we had paid for something and they couldn't get it working.

I've blundered my way through the operation of the machine for 9 months now, and have such a terrible view of the Doosan/Fanuc setup, obviously because I'm not using it correctly. BUT I am MORE than happy to be schooled and figure things out. I know both Doosan and Fanuc are great products, in theory it should be more capable and a better machine than the Haas which I love.

The issue is that my point of contact through all of this is the salesman who sold the machine. The same guy then did the install on it because of Covid restrictions here in Aus. They weren't able to fly anyone out from the other side of Australia who normally does the installs on the machines. I've had no contact with Doosan directly, nor from Fanuc. So my frustration with both of these is due to not understanding the machine, but I've got no contact with anyone who does.

I appreciate all the replies so far, and can already see that I am going to end up with a much better setup very quickly. I look forward to liking my machine a bit more!

Andrew

Wow, that situation sounds super fucked. I hope you can get some help here.

I take it back and upgrade my original reply to "Outrage."

Reseller laziness and fuckery was suspected in my original post, but I couldn't have imagined the situation was that level of shit-show.

gkoenig said:

I take it back and upgrade my original reply to "Outrage."

Reseller laziness and fuckery was suspected in my original post, but I couldn't have imagined the situation was that level of shit-show.

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Not that it's any excuse, but I feel like a lot of it is Chinese whispers. I have a problem, I tell my supplier, he tells his superior, and then that goes through to Doosan. And then by the time it gets to the right person at Doosan nobody knows what the real issue is. Or they give a solution to the problem, but it turns out that they dont understand what I'm asking for.

This is the first major issue, but theres plenty more that I'd like fixed that I'm not getting word back on. It seems pointless asking for small bits of info from the supplier if they havent been able to sort out anything decent yet. The machine has a laser height setter, but the GUI tool setter doesn't work with it. Everything has to be done via iso which is a bit frustrating and easy to make a mistake. Its not that hard to fix issues like this I feel!

Wow, the company I work for bought a puma lathe about 18 months ago and the training from hare and forbes was the best we have ever had from any of our suppliers, I'm shocked to hear they are fucking you around so bad.

Intriguing. Where are you? We have 5 doosan/daewoo/puma lathes and quite like them. Our local haas guy is the best to deal with though. He runs his own shop, so knows what he’s doing and can normally sort things out over the phone. And if not, he’s only ten minutes away.

gkoenig said:

I take it back and upgrade my original reply to "Outrage."

Reseller laziness and fuckery was suspected in my original post, but I couldn't have imagined the situation was that level of shit-show.

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Exactly how I read it too, hence my displeasure at the responses of those representing Doosan to immediately defend their own.

However, I was trying to temper that reaction at the same time - both Paul and Douglas are long term forum members with a proven track record of knowledge, experience and willingness to help, as they've also demonstrated ITT.

Also, hopefully some of this makes it up the chain. It's not good for an MTB to be represented by underperforming third party agents.

Like I said earlier, here in the UK Doosan are also represented by a third party. Luckily those guys are good at what they do and are the primary reason for the popularity of Doosan machines in this country. At the same time, I have had experience with useless third party dealers and I know what it's like to try and solve problems with too many uninterested parties in the middle.

Andrew HSE said:

Intriguing. Where are you? We have 5 doosan/daewoo/puma lathes and quite like them. Our local haas guy is the best to deal with though. He runs his own shop, so knows what he’s doing and can normally sort things out over the phone. And if not, he’s only ten minutes away.

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We are in Adelaide. They don't have a local tech, they flew a guy over from Sydney for training, and i have had good phone support for the couple of other problems i have had. Where are you located?

snapatap said:

We are in Adelaide. They don't have a local tech, they flew a guy over from Sydney for training, and i have had good phone support for the couple of other problems i have had. Where are you located?

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We are in Perth. I’ve got a direct contact for someone over east too. Perhaps the bigger issue is not understanding what I need. Instead of asking what I’m trying to do they are trying to help me do things wrong *

And now, you know the "rest of the story". Remember Paul Harvey? I will apologize first and foremost. Thanks Andrew, for the update. I can't comment on other dealers, especially in other countries.

DMTA here in America is a separate company than DMT in South Korea. That means we are all third party. But we live and die by the service we give.

The only issue I had with other comments was the jump to conclusions without the the back story. But I guess some of us are clairvoyant. Not an insult, it just gets old sometime. So I apologize to gkoenig also.

Now, all that being said, the document I sent to Andrew, if read in it's entirety (twice) will shed some light on the 5 axis machines. A lot of it is controlled by Fanuc but it comes down to how we set up our machines for the best use of the modern Fanuc options. This isn't just the Doosan way either. I would say all MTB's use this now to one extent or another. The first part of the doc explains why we don't program from the center of rotation anymore. You can still do it, why you would want to, I don't know. It precludes the use of some of the better options that Fanuc offers. Just a new way of seeing things.

Andrew,
You have my work email now. If I can help further, get hold of me there. I will help any way I can. I run the risk of stepping on your dealers toes and that could make help from them a little more scarce. Don't mention PM to them.

Paul

LockNut said:

Andrew,
You have my work email now. If I can help further, get hold of me there. I will help any way I can. I run the risk of stepping on your dealers toes and that could make help from them a little more scarce. Don't mention PM to them.

Paul

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Amazing. I look forward to reading it tomorrow at work as it’s midnight here. There’s no way you could make things more difficult. I mean, they try, but they’re selling options they don’t understand and certainly can’t teach. I’ll probably ask a few questions on some other matters too. It feels nice to be in contact with someone who knows what they’re on about. Thanks Paul!

Ok, so comparing output code between the Haas and the Doosan. I've read up on the file that got sent through, and I think I get most of it. I think what threw me originally is the different terminology between Haas and Fanuc.
I really need to get a decent understanding of the WSEC and how that works before I worry too much about simultaneous.

So below is a sample piece of code from the Haas, to spot drill two holes in a simple piece of 40mm bar stock, one in the face, and one in the outer diameter (40mm) 2.5mm below the top face and G54 of the part

%
G00 G40 G49 G80 Cancel codes
G00 G90 G54 Work offset selection
T6 M06
S1200 M03
G43 H6
C0. B0.
G254 INVOKE Haas DWO
G00 X0 Y0 Z100.
G81 Z-2. R1. F100.0
G80
G00 Z100.
G00 G53 Z0
G255 CANCEL DWO
C0. B90. Reposition
G254 INVOKE DWO
G00 X2.5 Y0. Z120.
G81 Z18. R21. F100.0
G80
G00 Z120.
M09
G255 CANCEL DWO
G00 G53 Z0
M30


Can someone help me rewrite this code to work on the fanuc with WSEC?

The above code will work on the Haas, with the part located anywhere on the table providing the B axis G54 value is set to zero. G54 is then just the top centre of the job referenced from the home position of the machine.

Thanks,
Andrew

Andrew HSE said:

Can someone help me rewrite this code to work on the fanuc with WSEC?

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Earlier, I pointed out that a Fanuc is a general purpose control that is highly configurable, and it is on the MTB to make those engineering decisions that will flow into their documentation, training, and support. When I said that, I was specifically thinking about how G54.4 (WSEC) and TCPC is handled. A Fanuc control can act wildly different based on parameter configurations (like, code that will work beautifully in one config will be a major crash with a different parameter set).

Just go illustrate the point- this is some training material from NX on how to configure their Machine Simulation for Fanuc TCPC, and they do an excellent job illustrating how one set of parameters will result in very different behavior than another:

https://youtu.be/Gs5EKfL95WU

If I recall, the machine did not come with G54.4 and this was purchased later. Who installed it? Did Fanuc just send you an enabling code? Did H&F come in and install it? Doosan? Turning it on isn't enough - the underlying parameters need to be set properly, the machine calibrated, and (prudence dictates) a test run with your post processor. To be of any value, that configuration should exactly match how Doosan installs this option at the factory, otherwise reference material and manuals from Doosan will be of negative value and the machine will be some bizarre one-off that nobody will be able to properly support.

Honestly, even the very helpful folks at Doosan USA couldn't help you without running through the machine params with a fine tooth comb to make sure your configuration matches how these machines come with this option from the factory.

Given H&F's inability to get the machine working properly, whatever this fuckery is with them entering your shop without your permission and capturing your proprietary data, the fact that someone charged you for an expensive Fanuc option with no support... I would have an attorney FedEx a letter to both H&F and the regional Doosan executive requesting an immediate meeting.

snapatap said:

We are in Adelaide. They don't have a local tech, they flew a guy over from Sydney for training, and i have had good phone support for the couple of other problems i have had. Where are you located?

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gkoenig said:

Earlier, I pointed out that a Fanuc is a general purpose control that is highly configurable, and it is on the MTB to make those engineering decisions that will flow into their documentation, training, and support. When I said that, I was specifically thinking about how G54.4 (WSEC) and TCPC is handled. A Fanuc control can act wildly different based on parameter configurations (like, code that will work beautifully in one config will be a major crash with a different parameter set).

Just go illustrate the point- this is some training material from NX on how to configure their Machine Simulation for Fanuc TCPC, and they do an excellent job illustrating how one set of parameters will result in very different behavior than another:

https://youtu.be/Gs5EKfL95WU

If I recall, the machine did not come with G54.4 and this was purchased later. Who installed it? Did Fanuc just send you an enabling code? Did H&F come in and install it? Doosan? Turning it on isn't enough - the underlying parameters need to be set properly, the machine calibrated, and (prudence dictates) a test run with your post processor. To be of any value, that configuration should exactly match how Doosan installs this option at the factory, otherwise reference material and manuals from Doosan will be of negative value and the machine will be some bizarre one-off that nobody will be able to properly support.

Honestly, even the very helpful folks at Doosan USA couldn't help you without running through the machine params with a fine tooth comb to make sure your configuration matches how these machines come with this option from the factory.

Given H&F's inability to get the machine working properly, whatever this fuckery is with them entering your shop without your permission and capturing your proprietary data, the fact that someone charged you for an expensive Fanuc option with no support... I would have an attorney FedEx a letter to both H&F and the regional Doosan executive requesting an immediate meeting.

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I’m going through settings with Paul now, and have the whole table of settings and parameters. But without knowing how the code is meant to look I can’t configure my post processor and then check the machine in real time. I’ve watched the video with nx, and would like to see how others program something simple first. They show two options for one of the parameters, neither is wrong, but there’s a big difference in the post processor