Does a high wage employee bring more value to a company than multiple low wage employees?

Soon, and I am sure EVERYONE here can agree, you wont find the high end guys if all the shops are corporate monopolies that just want button pushers....and want to keep them that way.

They will all be working in repair shops. Very difficult to use a CNC for stuff like that still. And they will still be found in shops that do high level work and in places that take programming further than what the CAM spits out. But the more the CAM improves, the less places there will be for high wage machinists in CNC work.

eKretz said:

They will all be working in repair shops. Very difficult to use a CNC for stuff like that still. And they will still be found in shops that do high level work and in places that take programming further than what the CAM spits out. But the more the CAM improves, the less places there will be for high wage machinists in CNC work.

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I think the skill set just changes. Being a “high end machinist” will still require expertise in fixturing and perhaps add software skills to that list. In engineering we have amazing 3D modeling and drafting tools, and FRA (edit FEA) packages that exceed what a human can reasonably do without them. We still need a skilled person to run them well.

jccaclimber said:

I think the skill set just changes. Being a “high end machinist” will still require expertise in fixturing and perhaps add software skills to that list. In engineering we have amazing 3D modeling and drafting tools, and FRA packages that exceed what a human can reasonably do without them. We still need a skilled person to run them well.

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Yes, that is true. But you only need one highly skilled person to make the setup and program. After that it can be run by a button pusher. Generally in a lot of CNC shops that is mostly what I have seen. A few guys who know their stuff doing that part of the work, then a large number of button pushers/part changers. The net effect is that the number of guys who really know what they're doing will probably go down.

eKretz said:

Yes, that is true. But you only need one highly skilled person to make the setup and program. After that it can be run by a button pusher. Generally in a lot of CNC shops that is mostly what I have seen. A few guys who know their stuff doing that part of the work, then a large number of button pushers/part changers. The net effect is that the number of guys who really know what they're doing will probably go down.

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For those who have been in machining gobs longer than I have. If you go back say 30 or 40 years to when things were a lot more manual, what % of the shop was "highly skilled" and what % was sweeping the floors, deburring, running the drill press but not going anywhere, etc.?

Lets go with making carbide cutting tools.
Specials at one or two pieces need high skill to get it right and not scrap the often special blanks.
100-5000 with defined processing and routings and two gumbies will far out run the artist.
So where is the line?

CarbideBob said:

Lets go with making carbide cutting tools.
Specials at one or two pieces need high skill to get it right and not scrap the often special blanks.
100-5000 with defined processing and routings and two gumbies will far out run the artist.
So where is the line?

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The line has to be based on the types and amounts of work the shop is doing. The general tendency for more automated shops seems to be lower numbers of highly skilled guys and more part changers. It is a changing world...

jccaclimber said:

For those who have been in machining gobs longer than I have. If you go back say 30 or 40 years to when things were a lot more manual, what % of the shop was "highly skilled" and what % was sweeping the floors, deburring, running the drill press but not going anywhere, etc.?

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In average job shops that I worked in and/or knew of well, I'd say the split was probably 25%, 60%, 15%. So, that would be highly skilled, competent and floor sweep/drill press/machine operator. In the best shops, more like 75%, 20%, 5%. Those would be manual machines, and job shops with low quantity and highly varied work. Most of the shops would fit more with the former split.

If you go back 40 or more years the tight tolerances designers specify now would have been laughed at ...or quoted a million bucks a part for tens and twenties......certainly needing a separate grinding operation that would double the price.

alek95 said:

Hi everyone,

I'm not a business owner but I work for a boss who seems to rather hire bums at $20 per hour than pay the wages for really good guys. We had one of our best employees get poached by another company because my boss didn't seem to appreciate him.

I notice that a small handful of guys basically are the rockstars of the company. They quietly put their heads down and just produce, a LOT. Maybe 25% of employees are like this. Then we have about 60% who just clock in and go through the motions. The bottom 15% of employees provide next to zero value to the company yet the boss seems to not mind

I'd like to branch off on my own in several years (I'm still young). When it comes time to start hiring, wouldn't I rather hire the best, even if I have to pay high wages?

My opinion is that one rockstar machinist at $40/hr provides more value and outproduces two bums that will work for $20/hr

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Whatever works for you. No two shops are the same. The complexity of the work dictates the pay scale. However, if productivity is an issue then, that can be addressed in other ways. Too many to mention here.

Ego comes into play. Lots of bosses are fearful of hiring someone that is more qualified than them. I am the exact opposite. Whenver possible I'd hire people that were way better than me and then support them in getting that done. If that employee takes over a task completely I now have open time for other things. My dad taught me to work this way and never get upset about the really good ones who almost always leave because their dream of ownership was too close to yours. Remember the golden rule of business, "He who has the gold rules!" So as long as you are signing the paychecks you get to take the blame. Sometimes it is nice when there is no blame.

As an employee, it's interesting to see this debate. I believe I'm a pretty good employee. I take pride in my work, and I think my pay pretty much reflects that. Just about everyone is *really* good at something, and a smart employer exploits that. (I don't mean exploit in a bad way, either.)
I've had my position for quite a few years, and my company has a pretty good idea of what I'm good at and what I'm not. As a result, the work I'm assigned is the stuff for which I'm either the best man for the job or the one most likely to become so. I don't think I'm an inexpensive employee, but I'm effective. The company continues to pay me and treat me well, so they must feel that they're getting what they pay for.

QT: (My opinion is that one rockstar machinist at $40/hr provides more value and outproduces two bums that will work for $20/hr)


That depends on the nature of the work, the attitude of the workers, and the skill of the manager.
I can likely do double work if the skill is a factor, but if it is just moving hand wheels and pushing buttons then I might likely lose. Management or the boss can make a good team produce, or do just the opposite.

The reality is and the point that is often missed is that the employees and the pay needs to match the business and is certainly the third leg of the equation. There is no point having a rock star if all he does is the same job day in and out, but if you have a rock star you can go after different work but then you can become dependent on the rock star.
I have a simple policy of giving my guys pay rise every 6 mths and believe if they are still with me after 6 mths and I haven't trained them to the point where they are worth more than they were then that is my failing not theirs. If they are not worth more than I should not employ them.
I see to many businesses take them employees for granted and watch owners get fat off them and yet do nothing for them.

When I was 21 I worked at a roofing and siding company, but i ran the sheet metal shop. By 23, I also ran the warehouse, got my cdl to take deliveries, and even had my own code for the sales computer. Did everything except for the books. I was making $18/hrs, which I was fine with at the time because I wanted to learn the entire ropes of a business for the future. But I ended up getting fired because the hypochondriac main driver didn't show up again and the old truck was the only truck not loaded. In less then 3 minutes, the whole can filled with exhaust from a 6" diameter hole in the pipe under the cab. I got fired because I refused to take the delivery "In That Truck". So the main driver was making 1 dollar more per hour, and I got shit canned for doing everything.


So where did more money come into play at this time?

Bondo said:

When I was 21 I worked at a roofing and siding company, but i ran the sheet metal shop. By 23, I also ran the warehouse, got my cdl to take deliveries, and even had my own code for the sales computer. Did everything except for the books. I was making $18/hrs, which I was fine with at the time because I wanted to learn the entire ropes of a business for the future. But I ended up getting fired because the hypochondriac main driver didn't show up again and the old truck was the only truck not loaded. In less then 3 minutes, the whole can filled with exhaust from a 6" diameter hole in the pipe under the cab. I got fired because I refused to take the delivery "In That Truck". So the main driver was making 1 dollar more per hour, and I got shit canned for doing everything.


So where did more money come into play at this time?

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Best thing that ever happened to you, although you may not have thought so at the time. You learned a lot about business and about how not to treat employees if you ever have any. You don't want to work for any body who puts an employee at risk. Time to move on and up.

Employees are assets just like machinery, good asset management means buying and using the best for the job (equipment or people ). The only difference is you have to use some tact dealing with people where as machines don't need it!
Being a non union maintenance shop we need multi craft people and they are hard to find. We have had a few good machinist but most were lousey mechanics. We do break with electricians as most are not very good mechanics. Suits me as I don't much care for electrical, ironic as that is why I came to Jax to go to school to be an ET.

We got lucky and just hired two good ones and I told our new super not to drag out the pay, move them up to the top asap. Don't know what they hired in at. Good mechanics seem to be the hardest to find, most are just parts replacers. They never learn trouble shooting and end up costing the company big time. Don't know how to repair any thing.