5 Axis purchase, yes or no?

Houdini16 · Jan 2, 2023

Any 5 axis shop give us some insight.
We are a tiny shop, me and my son, We currently run all Aluminum "production" on 4 Haas VMC's
We just bought a Hydmech H14A also to get us away from the manual saw.
We don't really get random job shop stuff, its mostly all the same parts all day every day.
We do have a bunch of parts that randomly come in through out the year, they are mostly the same part but different variations, low quantities 20-40 pcs.
The parts that come in randomly through out the year take a lot of time a way from the production machining, mostly in the form of setups, the parts have 4 operations.
These parts could be done on a 4 axis, but we were entertaining the idea of getting a Speedio M300X3 5 axis, and having this machine for all the random stuff,
Our thoughts were to create and model the vise and riser to a work coordinate or the machine 5 axis center, and just pull this in each time we reprogram a different part, also just leaving all the tools in it all the time.
all the parts we make can easily be programmed within its 22 tools.
Have never ran a 5 axis or programmed for it, is this feasible, as a time saver, can we actually get away with just cutting stock choosing the program, and inserting material?
Down side is, it only makes 1 part at a time, but the setups is what really kill us, I can find many singular minutes in a day, but not 2-4 hours for a setup in a day, 4 times in a week.

DouglasJRizzo · Jan 2, 2023

My dad used to say "If the other guy can learn it, you can learn it."
You may have to do a little cost analysis here, but it might be worth the investment.
As a plus - you can handle additional work you might otherwise have to turn away.

Comatose · Jan 2, 2023

How long is your cycle time per part? I find that the worst parts are 3-4 minutes of walkaway time: too long to just stand there loading and unloading, but too short to really go do anything else. So you only get a few hours of real machine time per day.

It sounds like everything would be indexed 3+2, which is no harder than 3+1 or 3 axis.

Even with 5 axis, you still have to do some sort of second op to hit the backside. So if you can do it in 2 ops on a 4th axis, that may be faster.

If you currently are only 3 axis on your 4 haas machines, I'd say start with a 4th for one or two of those machines and see where that gets you before jumping straight to five.

Houdini16 · Jan 2, 2023

Comatose said:
How long is your cycle time per part? I find that the worst parts are 3-4 minutes of walkaway time: too long to just stand there loading and unloading, but too short to really go do anything else. So you only get a few hours of real machine time per day.

It sounds like everything would be indexed 3+2, which is no harder than 3+1 or 3 axis.

Even with 5 axis, you still have to do some sort of second op to hit the backside. So if you can do it in 2 ops on a 4th axis, that may be faster.

If you currently are only 3 axis on your 4 haas machines, I'd say start with a 4th for one or two of those machines and see where that gets you before jumping straight to five.

Luckily cycle time on those would be over 4 min. and we usually have a month to get them done because the PO's are just to fill in stock as it lowers at the OEM.
I cant look into the adding a 4th to one of the Haas's machines we have currently because they have zero free time already, that's kind of the point.
The main profit this machine would add is the not taking time away from production machines already running.

Orange Vise · Jan 2, 2023

3+2 is really easy with dynamic work offsets (DWO). The part doesn't need to be anywhere close to center. You just need to probe for stock center and Z, and your machine will following the shifting origin.

I'd say absolutely go for it. The learning curve is much shallower than you might expect.

Most people running 3+1 aren't using DWO, and IMO it actually takes more skill to run parts that way than with 3+2+DWO.

Houdini16 said:
we were entertaining the idea of getting a Speedio M300X3 5 axis

Wouldn't be my first choice. I'd instead be looking at the U500. They're new to the market, but based off the proven S500 and T-200 platforms. We're getting a few of these later in the year.

If you want to stick with Haas, the UMCs are very easy to use. We have three of those as well.

13engines · Jan 2, 2023

Why no consideration of a Horizontal? Potential for 8 different setups mounted on a common two pallet machine. Few parts over two ops. Or - if time ever opens up to move some production to a Horizontal, and depending on what the parts are like, a single horizontal may be able to do the production work of two of your Verticals. The existing programming wouldn't need a ton of work to transfer over either. Take those two newly opened Verticals and use them for the side work. Throw a rotary or Trunion on one if you must.

Seed for thought... that's all.

Houdini16 · Jan 2, 2023

Orange Vise said:
3+2 is really easy with dynamic work offsets (DWO). The part doesn't need to be anywhere close to center. You just need to probe for stock center and Z, and your machine will following the shifting origin.

I'd say absolutely go for it. The learning curve is much shallower than you might expect.

Most people running 3+1 aren't using DWO, and IMO it actually takes more skill to run parts that way than with 3+2+DWO.

Wouldn't be my first choice. I'd instead be looking at the U500. They're new to the market, but based off the proven S500 and T-200 platforms. We're getting a few of these later in the year.

If you want to stick with Haas, the UMCs are very easy to use. We have three of those as well.

Yeah I was still debating on that U500, I haven't put in the time researching yet that you probably have.
I am not so worried about the learning curve, its more so, will I actually get the benefit I'm looking for.

Houdini16 · Jan 2, 2023

13engines said:
Why no consideration of a Horizontal? Potential for 8 different setups mounted on a common two pallet machine. Few parts over two ops. Or - if time ever opens up to move some production to a Horizontal, and depending on what the parts are like, a single horizontal may be able to do the production work of two of your Verticals. The existing programming wouldn't need a ton of work to transfer over either. Take those two newly opened Verticals and use them for the side work. Throw a rotary or Trunion on one if you must.

Seed for thought... that's all.

Actually this would be my first choice, The end game is how much money in parts can 2 guys create without having to hire anyone.
So we have a set of parts that would easily work on a 4 axis horizontal, they chew up a week on 2 machines, I am eyeballing a Mazak HCN-5000 with a future linear pallet system.
Currently we dont have the room, and even more so the floor thickness for that machine, and it costs twice the money, We are waiting to move to a bigger shop with thicker floors, or cut the future floors for this purchase.
I figure in the end, the most parts we could ever get done we need robot or pallet loaded horizontals, and robot or pallet loading 5 axis machines.
One of our main quantity parts requires some strange long cylinder machining, I am thinking a bar feed Integrex for these.

Houdini16 · Jan 2, 2023

Orange Vise said:
If you want to stick with Haas, the UMCs are very easy to use. We have three of those as well.

I'll never buy another Haas machine!!!!! people stating the high ROI don't know what their talking about, but also its contextual, I would have made far more money faster and easier if I would have bought more expensive machines with better more expensive engineering, the main reasoning chip and coolant management.

Orange Vise · Jan 2, 2023

How big are your parts? What material?

Houdini16 · Jan 2, 2023

Orange Vise said:
How big are your parts? What material?

The ones for this 5 axis are only like hand sized parts, 6061, we only do Aluminum.

mhajicek · Jan 2, 2023

I'm pretty fond of the VMC with a trunnion model myself. Do the stock prep, the multi axis op, and the final op in one button push on the same machine. Or swap the trunnion for a fourth axis high density fixture if that's what the parts want. All kinds of versatility.

Orange Vise · Jan 2, 2023

Houdini16 said:
The ones for this 5 axis are only like hand sized parts, 6061, we only do Aluminum.

Perfect for the U500 and perfect for robotized pallet automation down the road.

I've been a huge proponent of horizontals over the years. We have four of them with 50 pallets total. But everything you've described would be better on a light, fast 5-axis.

Garwood · Jan 2, 2023

Houdini16 said:
Actually this would be my first choice, The end game is how much money in parts can 2 guys create without having to hire anyone.
So we have a set of parts that would easily work on a 4 axis horizontal, they chew up a week on 2 machines, I am eyeballing a Mazak HCN-5000 with a future linear pallet system.
Currently we dont have the room, and even more so the floor thickness for that machine, and it costs twice the money, We are waiting to move to a bigger shop with thicker floors, or cut the future floors for this purchase.
I figure in the end, the most parts we could ever get done we need robot or pallet loaded horizontals, and robot or pallet loading 5 axis machines.
One of our main quantity parts requires some strange long cylinder machining, I am thinking a bar feed Integrex for these.

Makino has a 3 point base, concrete doesn't matter as much.

empower · Jan 2, 2023

Houdini16 said:
I'll never buy another Haas machine!!!!! people stating the high ROI don't know what their talking about, but also its contextual, I would have made far more money faster and easier if I would have bought more expensive machines with better more expensive engineering, the main reasoning chip and coolant management.

you know what i'm gonna say... GF mikron :P

Houdini16 · Jan 2, 2023

empower said:
you know what i'm gonna say... GF mikron :P

You know what I'm gonna say....made in China, not even with your money! HAHA

Houdini16 · Jan 2, 2023

Garwood said:
Makino is has a 3 point base, concrete doesn't matter as much.

I had a Haas MiniMill in a garage with a floating concrete floor(500sq.ft.) it was 14" thick, no issues with surface finish. Moved it to a commercial shop with 4" floors, now we get surface finish issues, So I don't think Ill ever buy into the old, its ok to have thin floors deal again, just my personal opinion as an engineer, it just makes sense to have thick floors.

Garwood · Jan 2, 2023

Houdini16 said:
I had a Haas MiniMill in a garage with a floating concrete floor(500sq.ft.) it was 14" thick, no issues with surface finish. Moved it to a commercial shop with 4" floors, now we get surface finish issues, So I don't think Ill ever buy into the old, its ok to have thin floors deal again, just my personal opinion as an engineer, it just makes sense to have thick floors.

In the general sense I agree it makes total sense to have thick floors. Concrete itself is very cheap. The labor to install it is what you mostly pay for and adding a few extra inches isn't that much more money.

That said, your argument doesn't really make sense. Haas needs the concrete because it doesn't have the iron/rigidity. The Makino has the iron/rigidity to stand alone on 3 points.

I'm only bringing it up because you say you want to work smarter, get more automated and make more parts with the same or less labor. Shitcan those turd Haas's you got and get a couple nice HMC's in place. You don't need 12" of concrete, especially not for a 3 point machine like a Makino.

You can dream about a pallet pool if you want to or you can just capitalize on the built in pallet changer and add some nice stones and fixtures. Not that big of a deal to swap pallets with a pallet changer.

Houdini16 · Jan 2, 2023

Garwood said:
In the general sense I agree it makes total sense to have thick floors. Concrete itself is very cheap. The labor to install it is what you mostly pay for and adding a few extra inches isn't that much more money.

That said, your argument doesn't really make sense. Haas needs the concrete because it doesn't have the iron/rigidity. The Makino has the iron/rigidity to stand alone on 3 points.

I'm only bringing it up because you say you want to work smarter, get more automated and make more parts with the same or less labor. Shitcan those turd Haas's you got and get a couple nice HMC's in place. You don't need 12" of concrete, especially not for a 3 point machine like a Makino.

You can dream about a pallet pool if you want to or you can just capitalize on the built in pallet changer and add some nice stones and fixtures. Not that big of a deal to swap pallets with a pallet changer.

I'm still dreamin anyway, we don't have room for a HMC

, we have just enough room for one more small machine, after that, no more machines until we move to somewhere real,
Hopefully that will be soon, I'm hoping to pay off my house and this years machines by end of summer, current PO's show were good just gotta get there.
I could pay it all now but with this economy wanna keep a little emergency fund going on.

empower · Jan 2, 2023

Garwood said:
Makino is has a 3 point base, concrete doesn't matter as much.

thickness and density matters more on 3 point machines, flatness - not so much.

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