Trueturning
Diamond
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- Jul 2, 2019
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How the Artemis 1 Rocket is made a good example of the US and Europe building in cooperation together.
- Thread starter Trueturning
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standardparts
Diamond
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2019
" good example of the US and Europe building in cooperation together."
So anyone have a breakdown of who's shouldering most of the bill for this?suckers like you and me apparently...
Naw...the Ukraine has a bunch-o money, they pay for it.suckers like you and me apparently...
as if they didnt get that money from you and me...
and sadly, as we both know, normal ukrainians like my friends and family will see none of it anyway
standardparts
Diamond
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2019
Let me clarify at bit......Gonna have to pay taxes, no way around that, but I'm pretty much OK if my tax money is getting spent on work performed in U.S. shops providing pay and benefits and maintaining some sort of technology retention. If it goes up and goes boom as long as nobody get's hurt fine by me---not like if they cancel the program I'll be seeing a refund.suckers like you and me apparently...
Trueturning
Diamond
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2019
This is always the case with the space program because they spend so much money. Now private companies are doing a lot which saves good money and government must use the private sector todo most everything otherwise it can get screwed up.
plenty of shortcomings to go around yet spin-off tech from the Space program is exceptionally good.
I understand the concerns and encourage the scrutiny of these and other endeavors too. It is not lost on me in any way. I am not directly involved with these efforts personally.
I have been to a few launches and some with restricted access during the 60’s. It was really cool.
Trueturning
Diamond
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2019
US shoulders the cost and reaps proportionally the benefits. We usually share more than we need to do most often.
Having a look-see at the back of moon somehow benefits "Joe Bag of donuts" ?
How about spending 1/1000 of that on more police ?
Fix the roads.
Trueturning
Diamond
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2019
Yes true there are many different places to send money to. Few actually have a benefit to people yet there are many which do. It can include military and civilian.
I had hoped that perhaps some members in Europe might weigh in to this endeavor since they are involved very much so. Yet so far I have not noticed any feedback. I will say too that feedback from the US can be better also. Free discussion it is best.
I was hoping some of our members from Europe migh take part. Please feel free To do so. This section involves the US and Europe after all.
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standardparts
Diamond
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2019
Fix the roads--Hire more cops. Boy-O-Boy won't even go down that road and get gigged by the monitor cops.......
But back to rockets to the moon...maybe we are in another space race? Maybe shooting one of those monsters into the sky is the only way to really test it.
Going way back all the go fast high tech stuff had a lot to do with those alphabet agencies like NSA and CIA and probably now-a-days DARPA.
Freedommachine
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- May 13, 2020
Pshh, they will be paving the first road on the moon before mine ever gets fixed lol. Somebody needs to take away the Congresses credit card.
somebody = we, the people.
shame we've lost our balls.
They seem to be fixing all the roads around here all at once... and all very slowly.
Trueturning
Diamond
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2019
We as always seem to bear the expense. This seems to always be the case that others do not do much at all. I understand your point.
Trueturning
Diamond
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2019
Yes and it sucks everywhere. Seems like they could keep the roads tight. Yet they drag on that maintenance.
hanermo
Titanium
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Location
- barcelona, spain
The artemis seems to me to mostly be a boondoggle, of mostly US pork.
It´s mostly a jobs/money deal for the US states where the work get´s done, supported by their states politicians.
The pols don´t care that maybe other companies (US) can do better for 1/10 the cost in 1/4 the time.
Don´t get me wrong.
These cadillac programs with no expense spared, usually deliver excellent results, and often deliver very valuable spinoffs.
In technology, formulas and theory, materials science, all sorts of extremely valuable stuff.
In a US youtube video, where they are making the rocket parts, the program manager states that they have 5% margin from planned load to explosive failure.
Dont recall, maybe mcdonnel douglas, one of the big US aerespace companies.
For comparison, typical car/bridge/lifting margins are mandated at 500% proof to 1000% failure load.
So the rocket parts are about 40x "better".
This is materials science, maths and formulas. Extremely valuable.
E:
It is very difficult to make the *first* aerospace 3d hollow grid of mostly empty metal to make a very stiff light spar - aeroplanes etc.
It is very easy and cheap to mostly copy it, even by eyeball, for 90% of the results for 0.01% of the costs.
So the artemis probably cost 10x too much, due to US acquirement policies,
BUT it will likely deliver 10.000x its cost in benefits within 20 years.
And most of the 10x4 benefits will stay in the US, as the early adopter of new tech gets most of the big early benefits.
So probably some new company spinoffs, making millionares of the founders, but employing 1000s of US grads at 100-200k per year to develop and deploy the new tech, in endless new apps and fields.
And the thousands of new employees will largely spend most of the new wealth throughout the US economy.
It´s a very good idea for a government to spend money on education, and R&D, as this typically gets the government a 5:1 - 10:1 benefit in lifetime taxes and reduced government costs.
Doing this through an artemis program is just another way to do the same.
It´s mostly a jobs/money deal for the US states where the work get´s done, supported by their states politicians.
The pols don´t care that maybe other companies (US) can do better for 1/10 the cost in 1/4 the time.
Don´t get me wrong.
These cadillac programs with no expense spared, usually deliver excellent results, and often deliver very valuable spinoffs.
In technology, formulas and theory, materials science, all sorts of extremely valuable stuff.
In a US youtube video, where they are making the rocket parts, the program manager states that they have 5% margin from planned load to explosive failure.
Dont recall, maybe mcdonnel douglas, one of the big US aerespace companies.
For comparison, typical car/bridge/lifting margins are mandated at 500% proof to 1000% failure load.
So the rocket parts are about 40x "better".
This is materials science, maths and formulas. Extremely valuable.
E:
It is very difficult to make the *first* aerospace 3d hollow grid of mostly empty metal to make a very stiff light spar - aeroplanes etc.
It is very easy and cheap to mostly copy it, even by eyeball, for 90% of the results for 0.01% of the costs.
So the artemis probably cost 10x too much, due to US acquirement policies,
BUT it will likely deliver 10.000x its cost in benefits within 20 years.
And most of the 10x4 benefits will stay in the US, as the early adopter of new tech gets most of the big early benefits.
So probably some new company spinoffs, making millionares of the founders, but employing 1000s of US grads at 100-200k per year to develop and deploy the new tech, in endless new apps and fields.
And the thousands of new employees will largely spend most of the new wealth throughout the US economy.
It´s a very good idea for a government to spend money on education, and R&D, as this typically gets the government a 5:1 - 10:1 benefit in lifetime taxes and reduced government costs.
Doing this through an artemis program is just another way to do the same.
Trueturning
Diamond
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2019
“The pols don´t care that maybe other companies (US) can do better for 1/10 the cost in 1/4 the time.”
I doubt this really. It is easy to say and many will believe it. The companies who did the work are quite accomplished and did not just have a inside track. The proof is in the end products and the advances in Engineering and Manufacturing of which you pointed out yourself.
I do understand the concerns of expense sure yet unless something is paid then most likely nothing good will ever be built. Very few can build anything on the cheap. It is a good concept and the whole world wants to believe that.
I imagine even Russia has not chosen the companies who would build their rockets as cheaply as you do propose. There is nothing wrong with the concept really and yet it seems to me the reality is that these kinds of things are so important that to do them correctly does require a hurclean effort. It is the Moon and Mars plus beyond after all and it is a country doing it which is largely the US and that is a country which in the past many persons have said here would fail and essentially go bankrupt a long time ago. I bet on the United States everytime. Europe also As each are proven entities to me in competency.
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