Do I actually need CAM for a VF4SS+TRT210?

deftonite · Dec 29, 2022

Hi everyone,

Dumb question, I know, but hear me out -

My business had a very profitable year and I decided to reinvest some of those winnings into a VF4SS+TRT210 to bring some production in-house. It is end of the year, so all the software distributors have their biggest sale of the year going. It would make sense to buy now (tomorrow), but I have 2 problems:

1) I haven't dedicated the necessary time to deep dive all CAM options, and I feel silly spending 5axis CAM money on a product that I haven't fully investigated. Currently eyeballing CAMWorks, TopSolid, and MasterCam, but not clear on differences. I have quotes though! We use Solidworks for design if that matters at all.

2) The mill wont be installed until early summer of next year due to some shop construction. We're not in a rush for the machine, and it feels silly to pay maintenance on software that I'm not even using.

So come summer next year I'll be ready for CAM, but the prices will all suck. I'm thinking maybe wait untill this time next year to buy. MY QUESTION (finally, I know right?): Will I be able to manually program simple parts on the machine console? I'm thinking this would be a great way for us to get acclimated to the machine before the 5axis fancy software is available. Please let me know if this is dumb and the machine is effectively a brick without proper CAM. All I know is Bridgeport EZ-TRAK, so I have a learning curve no matter what and most of the CAM capability will be wasted on me (for a few months at least).

Thanks!

Orange Vise · Dec 29, 2022

Don't rush a CAM purchase. You will likely regret it. Better to make a fully informed decision and get what you actually need/want, as you'll be stuck with your decision for a long time. You may also not need full 5-axis capability. 3+2 can be substantially less expensive.

Also don't plan on running that machine without CAM. Can you run a 5-axis machine by fingerbanging on the control? Some say yes, but IMHO the opposite is happening, the machine is running you.

As for waiting until Dec 2023 to get CAM, only a good idea if you don't believe in the concept of opportunity cost.

Lastly, we'll have a lot of new stuff perfect for the TRT210 (and sensibly priced) by the time your machine arrives (shameless plug).

deftonite · Dec 29, 2022

Thanks so much for your reply. I'm was pretty much thinking that too, and random stranger confirming it is all I need apparently. Do you think there is any hope for training ourselves on stuff using the machine for simple 3axis parts? Or pretty much just a challenge no matter what? If it's essentially a brick then I'll just order a well-researched product when we need it as opposed to waiting for a sale. The time cost of software maintenance makes that a savings in a way. We will be super green on running this thing. First cnc...

Also btw, super cool that you of all people (people/company?) are the one to first respond. On black Friday I just bought your bench vice intending for it to go on the table next to the machine. Actually I bought the private label one from Obsessed Garage because it was blue. Sorry. It's a bitchin vice!

crossthread82 · Dec 29, 2022

For just 3+2 stuff you'd only need a 3 axis CAM package not a full 5 since you can just use planes to get the +2 part. Most CAM packages can handle this fine. It's when you get into full 5 that you have to be really picky about which one you go with. Though it is good to start with a good one, since a mistake here is usually an expensive one.

IMO hand programming at the control on a mill in 2023 is for the birds. You're leaving a lot on the table in terms of cut capability and performance long handing everything.

People shit talk Fusion (Including me at times), but for what you're doing it would probably be fine, it's cheap, and there's tons of online resources to help you learn.

mhajicek · Dec 29, 2022

It's all going to depend on your parts. If it's a square block with holes normal to the faces, fingerbang away. Much more than that and you'll definitely need CAM.

BarnFab · Dec 30, 2022

I run that exact setup happily on Fusion 360 Base with no plug in's . I only do Index work and not full simultaneous but fusion handles the rotary fine on the VF4SS with the default fusion post. I would not waste my money on anything more if index work is fine

empower · Dec 30, 2022

deftonite said:
Hi everyone,

Dumb question, I know, but hear me out -

My business had a very profitable year and I decided to reinvest some of those winnings into a VF4SS+TRT210 to bring some production in-house. It is end of the year, so all the software distributors have their biggest sale of the year going. It would make sense to buy now (tomorrow), but I have 2 problems:

1) I haven't dedicated the necessary time to deep dive all CAM options, and I feel silly spending 5axis CAM money on a product that I haven't fully investigated. Currently eyeballing CAMWorks, TopSolid, and MasterCam, but not clear on differences. I have quotes though! We use Solidworks for design if that matters at all.

2) The mill wont be installed until early summer of next year due to some shop construction. We're not in a rush for the machine, and it feels silly to pay maintenance on software that I'm not even using.

So come summer next year I'll be ready for CAM, but the prices will all suck. I'm thinking maybe wait untill this time next year to buy. MY QUESTION (finally, I know right?): Will I be able to manually program simple parts on the machine console? I'm thinking this would be a great way for us to get acclimated to the machine before the 5axis fancy software is available. Please let me know if this is dumb and the machine is effectively a brick without proper CAM. All I know is Bridgeport EZ-TRAK, so I have a learning curve no matter what and most of the CAM capability will be wasted on me (for a few months at least).

Thanks!

i would just pick up fusion 360, it should be on sale right now for under 500/yr. like orange vise said, dont bother trying to program by hand. especially if you're new to programming in general, you can fuck up a lot of stuff by misplacing g-code. if you're not ready to spend the money on high end cam now, fusion will at the very least hold you over, allow you to get accilmated and used to programming and running parts, learn some ins and outs. then by end of next year you can decide if you wanna spend the big bucks on something else.

ViktorS · Dec 30, 2022

+1 on Fusion.

To learn basic CNC and 5 ax positioning it works fine. With time and experience you will know what you don't know and have a better understanding what to look for in a 5 ax CAM package.

Marvel · Dec 30, 2022

deftonite said:
Hi everyone,

Dumb question, I know, but hear me out -

My business had a very profitable year and I decided to reinvest some of those winnings into a VF4SS+TRT210 to bring some production in-house. It is end of the year, so all the software distributors have their biggest sale of the year going. It would make sense to buy now (tomorrow), but I have 2 problems:

1) I haven't dedicated the necessary time to deep dive all CAM options, and I feel silly spending 5axis CAM money on a product that I haven't fully investigated. Currently eyeballing CAMWorks, TopSolid, and MasterCam, but not clear on differences. I have quotes though! We use Solidworks for design if that matters at all.

2) The mill wont be installed until early summer of next year due to some shop construction. We're not in a rush for the machine, and it feels silly to pay maintenance on software that I'm not even using.

So come summer next year I'll be ready for CAM, but the prices will all suck. I'm thinking maybe wait untill this time next year to buy. MY QUESTION (finally, I know right?): Will I be able to manually program simple parts on the machine console? I'm thinking this would be a great way for us to get acclimated to the machine before the 5axis fancy software is available. Please let me know if this is dumb and the machine is effectively a brick without proper CAM. All I know is Bridgeport EZ-TRAK, so I have a learning curve no matter what and most of the CAM capability will be wasted on me (for a few months at least).

Thanks!

If you already have SolidWorks, you should have SolidWorksCAM, check your add ins, its pretty basic, its essentially CAMWorks 2.5 axis module, so it's pretty limited.

As @Orange Vise said "dont rush a CAM purchase" - So if you have access to SolidWorksCAM already, it would be a good starting point to get into CAM cost free being its included with your SolidWorks seat.

SolidWorksCAM has a few upgrade's available as well if you start needing more than the basics, and if you need more advanced tool paths you jump into a full CAMWorks package at that point.

Whatever software you choose, you should be able to, but I also have a Bridgeport Ez Trak, its 3 axis and have a post for it so I can program it in CAMWorks.

goooose · Dec 30, 2022

deftonite said:
My business had a very profitable year and I decided to reinvest some of those winnings into a VF4SS+TRT210 to bring some production in-house.

Are you a machine shop with machinists? Who's going to be running the software?

deftonite · Dec 30, 2022

BarnFab said:
I run that exact setup happily on Fusion 360 Base with no plug in's . I only do Index work and not full simultaneous but fusion handles the rotary fine on the VF4SS with the default fusion post. I would not waste my money on anything more if index work is fine

Awesome input! Thanks man. I'm going to follow your lead, and it looks like many on the thread agree with you.

deftonite · Dec 30, 2022

Marvel said:
If you already have SolidWorks, you should have SolidWorksCAM, check your add ins, its pretty basic, its essentially CAMWorks 2.5 axis module, so it's pretty limited.

Unfortunately I'm on an older license of Solidworks that doesn't have the basic SolidWorksCAM add-in. Good to know it exists though! I was planning on getting a current seat of 2023 with the CAM purchase.

deftonite · Dec 30, 2022

goooose said:
Are you a machine shop with machinists? Who's going to be running the software?

No, more of a product development shop. We do engineering + manufacturing on small batches or singular complex machines. We don't have any machinists on staff, and it would be me that ends up running the machine most of the time.

empower · Dec 30, 2022

IMO you'd be wasting money going with anything more than fusion 360

Marvel · Dec 30, 2022

deftonite said:
Unfortunately I'm on an older license of Solidworks that doesn't have the basic SolidWorksCAM add-in. Good to know it exists though! I was planning on getting a current seat of 2023 with the CAM purchase.

Might be a place to start, upgrade SolidWorks and try the included CAM. Like I said the included SolidWorksCAM Standard that is included with SolidWorks is really basic, but you can jump up to a SolidWorksCAM professional that will include 3+2 machining as well.

If time allows, I would trial as many as you can, see what feels comfortable for yourself, everyone takes to different CAM differently, you don't want to shell out $10-20k on a software to find out you don't like it. I program about 2500 parts a year all the way up to simultaneous 4th axis tool paths and have never came across something I couldn't program in CAMWorks. I've used other software over the years, but I've stuck with CAMWorks. It's what I know and am comfortable with.

If you like SolidWorks, I'd look into CAM options that are add-ins. I've heard great things about SolidCAM. If I was to ever move away from CAMWorks, it would be between SolidCAM and NX.

Marvel · Dec 30, 2022

empower said:
IMO you'd be wasting money going with anything more than fusion 360

@deftonite What @empower said. I'm personally not a fan of Fusion, but it has its place, and there are a lot of guys that make awesome programs with it. It doesn't seem like you'll be doing too much programming, I wouldn't jump and spend $10-20k on software until you start utilizing it almost daily.

If you are planning on upgrading SolidWorks, utilize the free included CAM, or go with Fusion. There's a lot of support and tutorials out there for Fusion as well.

deftonite · Dec 30, 2022

Marvel said:
@deftonite What @empower said. I'm personally not a fan of Fusion, but it has its place, and there are a lot of guys that make awesome programs with it. It doesn't seem like you'll be doing too much programming, I wouldn't jump and spend $10-20k on software until you start utilizing it almost daily.

If you are planning on upgrading SolidWorks, utilize the free included CAM, or go with Fusion. There's a lot of support and tutorials out there for Fusion as well.

I hear you guys loud and clear! I hadn't looked at Fusion a single bit before this thread and after a cursory review, it's clearly the best value out there. It will handle 100% of my initial needs as I skill up on how to use the machine, and probably 90%+ of my needs long term. It's the simultaneous 5axis that will need more investment, but by the time I get acclimated to the machine, I may find that 3+2 is good enough. TBD...

Thanks guys!

GeorgeW21 · Jan 3, 2023

deftonite said:
Unfortunately I'm on an older license of Solidworks that doesn't have the basic SolidWorksCAM add-in. Good to know it exists though! I was planning on getting a current seat of 2023 with the CAM purchase.

HSMWorks was a free plugin for SolidWorks, at least it was a couple of years when I installed it. Gives you basic 2.5 axis CAM. Which could be enough to get your toes wet and have integrated CAD and CAM within SolidWorks.

GiroDyno · Jan 3, 2023

Now is the time to buy because you're going to need time to learn the software before the machine shows up and you have to learn how to use that too. Waiting six months for a machine to show up to purchase software, so you can wait another 6 weeks to learn to generate programs and run the thing sounds pretty silly to me.

The standard Fusion360 license is $500(?) and should do everything you need.

jhov · Jan 4, 2023

Fusion is a great tool to learn with and is great for hobbyists, but beware of the trap. The trap I refer to is not exclusive to Fusion; any CAD/CAM system is a trap in a sense that you will spend a great deal of time and effort to produce files that will only be useful in whatever system you decide on. Fusion poses a bit more risk than others because of the history of the company that owns it and the fact they they have already restructured their subscription services and shuffled paid features around from one to another at least once already.

If you want something cheap that you can own, a copy of Rhino and either VisualMILL or BobCAM for Rhino (BobCAM also has a plugin for Solidworks if you already have that as well) are both good choices and are quite affordable, well supported and the licenses are perpetual so you'll never lose access to your software, regardless of who happens to take over running the company that developed it.

Do I actually need CAM for a VF4SS+TRT210?

Plastic

Titanium

Plastic

Aluminum

Titanium

Aluminum

Titanium

Aluminum

Aluminum

Attachments

Hot Rolled

Plastic

Plastic

Plastic

Titanium

Aluminum

Attachments

Aluminum

Plastic

Plastic

Aluminum

Aluminum

Similar threads