Who owns the drawings?

Occasionally I am asked to design and build different types of tooling for the shop where I work. The measurements needed are taken at work on company time. The design and CAD drawings are made at home with my computer. I think they know that once they plant an idea in my head I have a hard time getting it out of my head until I solve it. Recently this scenario happened and although the design was just an update on an existing item I still had over 100 hours of designing and programming done on my own time at home and I was not compensated for it although I informed them what I had done. I did make the items for the shop on the clock. I have been asked by a friend that works for another company for a set of the drawings. His company has borrowed a set of these tools without the updates to use for a short period of time. They could reverse engineer the items but would like the updates. While both companies are in the same business we are not competitors. My question is whether it would be ethical or legal for me to supply the drawings to this friend? I consider the drawings to be mine since I did all the work on them and was not compensated. Opinions?
Lou

I think you are OK morally, but giving the drawings to your friend could seriously stress your situation with your employer. I suggest you don't do it.

Loomis said:

Occasionally I am asked to design and build different types of tooling for the shop where I work. The measurements needed are taken at work on company time. The design and CAD drawings are made at home with my computer. I think they know that once they plant an idea in my head I have a hard time getting it out of my head until I solve it. Recently this scenario happened and although the design was just an update on an existing item I still had over 100 hours of designing and programming done on my own time at home and I was not compensated for it although I informed them what I had done. I did make the items for the shop on the clock. I have been asked by a friend that works for another company for a set of the drawings. His company has borrowed a set of these tools without the updates to use for a short period of time. They could reverse engineer the items but would like the updates. While both companies are in the same business we are not competitors. My question is whether it would be ethical or legal for me to supply the drawings to this friend? I consider the drawings to be mine since I did all the work on them and was not compensated. Opinions?
Lou

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Most companies will have a clause in any employment contract that anything you design/create that is in the line of work you do is owned by the company, regardless of whether it was created on company time or not.

I believe that even if it's not stated in a contract, that's how the court system would see things too, if it came to that.

You said that you have a hard time getting something out of your head until you solve it. I am the same way - but just because you did work for your company outside of your normal hours, that does not mean that you own that work and are entitled to sell it (or give it away) to someone else.

The bottom line whenever ethical questions come up is if you have to hide it, then you know it's not ethical. So the test would be... if you asked your employer "hey can I give these design files to so-and-so?". If you know they would say no, then it's unethical to do it without informing them. If it's all on the up-and-up, there should be no problem with letting your employer know about it.

If it's a problem for you that your employer owns things you created on your home computer, then the best advice is to only make such things on company time at your office.

I don't see how the company can own something they didn't pay for. I don't have an office at work. I have ask them to get me a laptop to do CAD drawings at work and they refused. The way I see it my time is MY time. They actually benefitted from My time.

Loomis said:

I don't see how the company can own something they didn't pay for. I don't have an office at work. I have ask them to get me a laptop to do CAD drawings at work and they refused. The way I see it my time is MY time. They actually benefitted from My time.

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That may be your "feeling"--and I think most of us would feel the same way--but it may not be the reality. The Law, the courts and contracts are not always "fair".

Umm, you need to stop doing that.
"Occasionally I am asked to design and build different types of tooling for the shop where I work."
-- Can you do it with tools/software at work, or have someone else do it?

"I still had over 100 hours of designing and programming done on my own time at home and I was not compensated for it"

" I have ask them to get me a laptop to do CAD drawings at work and they refused."
--
That's the main reason you should stop. Or, have a formal written arrangement, with rights spelled out as well as compensation. Who owns the CAD key you used at home? (Or is it freeware?)

And are the mods something that needs engineering approval? Giving it to a shop where you're not on their insurance in any way could be an issue for you if something goes wrong.

Chip

Sounds a bit risky to me, but the fact that you asked shows you care about honesty and ethics. BUT, it sounds like you also are too nice a guy, and are giving too much work/knowledge away without being compensated. I have always been guilty of the same, and realize now that no one really appreciates it.. Actually, the ones you help out, will often go elsewhere, when they have some $$$ to spend.

I don't know what industry you work in but I am 100% in agreement with SRT Mike.
No doubts and no question in my mine where the courts would go with this and I've seen it happen more than once.

Also in agreement with Chip Chester. "Umm, you need to stop doing that.",.......,if you really feel that you should own the work.
You are doing work off the clock for free.

Sorry, but we all take work home in our head and crunch on it.
This does not make it yours , although I certainly understand the feeling that it should be.
Bob

I tend to agree with the theory that you would not own the design work...but IIRC something to the effect that if in your normal course of your job duties you do not do design work, then this does change, and you may be able to own the engineering work you perform. I think it will be a gray area, and generally those that have the deepest pockets will win in the end.

If you can, stop "giving" away your engineering time, ask them to let you stay home and do the design work, or you can tell them your CAD software crashed, or cannot be used for commercial purposes or any other excuse that distances you from the situation.


Steve

If you are hourly, or do not have an "off premises" work agreement in writing, Anything you do "on your own time" for the company is just stupid on your part.

You have nothing. The company owns you and everything you bring.

Sorry, that's the way it works!

Get compensated for what you do or get it in writing before hand.

The company you work for owns the drawings. I've been employed by USA companies and Australian ones, I've been an independent contractor for both.

In every case, unless you have a specific exemption, they own all the work you do regardless of place or time or subject.

I had a very specific exemption put in all my employment contracts to cover 'prior art' IP that I had developed & owned just to make sure it couldn't be captured by employment contracts.

So if you're not happy with this, stop doing it right now. They don't want to provide you with the time & tools, that tells me that they value what you're doing very little, so they won't have anything to say when you do nothing further in the future.

Contrariwise if they decide what you've been doing *is* valuable, you then have grounds to renegotiate, but think carefully on what you want to gain before it gets to this point.

PDW

Do you have a dba?

If not you need to get one and invoice for your 100+ hours of design time.

No way are you going to be able to reconcile this any other way.

Loomis said:

I don't see how the company can own something they didn't pay for. I don't have an office at work. I have ask them to get me a laptop to do CAD drawings at work and they refused. The way I see it my time is MY time. They actually benefitted from My time.

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Yes, law is not always justice. Courts prefer to go after the law, not towards justice, and often enough judges produce total injustice. Beware of the third power!

Capitalism rules, therefore everything job inherent belongs to the entrepreneur. Kapital, Areal, Material, Personal

I’d talk with the boss, tell him what I did for the enterprise and that I expect reward as politely as I’m able to.

This is always a sticky area. There is the tendency of people like yourself (and me) to go the extra 27 miles to "do something" and create a solution, often involving a lot of outside time, because you can't get it done in the normal workday with all the other regular responsibilities to take care of. You have the tools and ability under your control to make the solution, and why not? It makes your life easier at work later, you save the company money now, and surely there will be some consideration at annual review time. Also, it's (perhaps) some insurance against a job loss if conditions deteriorate. These are all valid considerations in doing over-and-above work. You are essentially investing in the company, with the hope of recouping a larger than normal reward later, as I see it. These sorts of investments often do pay off, but always at a lower, slower rate than you'd like.
If you need to see direct quid pro quo action, you either need to persuade the company to outfit you with the necessary tools and software (this can maybe be done by collecting the body of output together and looking at what has been contributed in total over time with no extra charge to the company), so you can do the work AT work; OR, you need to arrange a separate consulting contract for outside work using your stuff. Part of the contract should be explicit about disposition of the IP provided. This can perhaps be done on a case-by-case basis, or as a general rule for all projects. Either way, realize that you are asking the company to spend money that they have previously not needed to, so there is knee-jerk resistance right off the bat.

I assume you are hourly and not salary. The company owns the drawings if all the equipment used to make them was theirs (was the software theirs?). You definitely should not share drawings even if you do think they are yours, it will not be viewed favorably.

You shouldn't be working uncompensated. I completely understand the desire to go the extra mile (I take stuff home with me regularly but I'm in a salary position). Especially design work, it tends to be fun and challenging and something I enjoy doing in the evenings. But as an hourly employee you're putting your company into an awkward legal situation by doing uncompensated work. They *really* shouldn't allow you to work from home for free (could be construed at a later point into a lawsuit or potential labor law violation). You need some kind of written agreement and work as a contractor.

Get a written agreement that is clear.

In your position it would be best to write a proposal and present it to 2-3 people in management. You need to take the high road on this and have all of the questions answered in your proposal. Along with taking care of the potential problems you are having, you need to sell this to them, make them feel they are getting value.

Tim

Start getting paid for the work you do and this question never comes up again.

Now what you can do is tell your boss that buddy at the other place wants your design, so you'll sell them to your boss for $$$$ and he can turn around and sell it to the other place for $$$$$. and if he's not cool with that, either way next time you should get paid, or find something else to do with your free time.

I would be very worried about giving any information to a competitor, through your friend.

Your employer could turn nasty if they find you are giving their business practices to your friend who works for another company, especially that they are showing an interest in your companies manufacturing processes.

They may not be your direct competitors now, but you do not know their plans for the future.


industrial espionage -- Encyclopedia Britannica

Thanks for all the input guys. to answer a few questions. The CAD program is mine. I bought it and put it on my home computer. I am an hourly employee. The other company is not a competitor. They have their own company that requires a machine shop and the machine shop works only on their company equipment. We do business for multiple companies but theirs is not one of them. There are no safety concerns with the item in question. It is for setting gear backlash and they are responsible for calibration.

You do need to talk to your employer. We pay people for off site work just like they where at the shop. If one of our guys shared a design with anyone in the same field as ours they would be in deep sh!?. Talk to your boss they are usually fair.

Athack