Buying manual mills and lathes for a VoTech shop

Maybe a simple question, maybe not....
New instructor wants to have some manual machines for first year students to learn the basics on.
School shop, four 50 year old Bridgeports, some ProtoTrak CNC, some not. Old abused and tired.
Three old 13" SouthBend flat belt lathes, 2 DoAlls.
A 17" SouthBend Turnado which has had the apron removed and lost.
The above machines would be sold off.
American made lathes and mills would be preferred, but Taiwanese or other quality imports would be considered.
Budget for replacements is unknown. What would you suggest?

I just bought a new Leblond RKL 1660v. It was delivered yesterday. So far very impressed with the machine. Apparently their smaller machines are very popular in school applications. I dealt with chris smith. His extension is 205 if you call leblond directly. My machine was in stock in Ohio and shipped fairly quickly.

"used to be" that some machine tool companies were eager to place their machines so students would be familiar with a certain brand....might call around to some of the sales reps and see if they offer any type of promo machines---stripped down CNCs.
And....at one time while working for a state agency found out certain vendors could supply a pre-written purchase proposal that was known to move through the budget guys/approval process based on their knowledge of gov't purchasing.

Yes any Leblond would be great, if you can afford them, I like that they are US made and you can get repair parts, something that comes in handy with students running them. Summit and Ganesh are good machines but they are imports. All are pricey.
As far as manual mills the market is not so open, sharp makes a good BP clone and they seem to hold up well and you can get repair parts.
As far as CNC machines HAAS does offer a school discount and you can find information for training on line. They also offer scholarship money to students, you have to apply for it as the instructor. I know many will say other machines are better but for the price they are good bang for the buck and you can bet the shop where the student will land will have one.

I don’t think current LeBlonds are made in the US. The most recent one I looked at was like any number of others like Acra-Turn, Kent, Sharp, South Bend (Grizz),…made in Asia.

Wells Index mills are still made in Michigan as far as I'm aware.

Have you considered sending out some or all of the current machines for rebuilds and updates? Our local technical school has at least a couple dozen Bridgeport milling machines. Some are strictly manual; others are the Pro Trak versions. At the end of every school year, they send out a few for rebuilds and updates. They're usually back long before the fall semester starts. They look and run as though they were new machines.

In cases where the procedure takes longer than the downtime available the rebuilding company substitutes loaner machines to keep the shops up and running. You might be able to work out a contract with a rebuilder that would bring in already rebuilt machines in exchange for the tired ones currently in the shop.

Most rebuilding shops can handle multiple brands and configurations. H&W Machine Rebuilding and Repair for instance specializes in at least 14 different brands of milling machines, more than 9 different brands of lathes, and other machinery such as grinders, saws, drill presses and other tool room machinery. They are extremely knowledgeable, good people to deal with and have fair prices for new, used, and rebuilt machines, and all their services. While I personally haven't had them rebuild any of my machines, I have bought a number of parts from them over the years

Here's a link to their website:

On Edit: I still think rebuilding your current machines is a viable option. H&W estimates the cost of rebuilding a series I machine to be between $9,900.00 and $10,400.00 with a 4-to-6-week turnaround time. The also rebuild LeBlond and South Bend lathes as well as DoAll machines lathes.

As an FYI Bridgeport mills have been assembled in the US since 2003 when the company was bought by Hardinge. At that time some castings were still made offshore, but the intent was to bring that process back to the US as well. I'm not sure if that part ever came back.

Wells Index are the only full size milling machines still made in the USA. Starting at $20K.
And there are no small manual lathes still made here.
Closest thing is the Canadian/US hybrid Standard Modern. Their 13" starts around $22k
Taiwan made machines are going to be cheaper, next step down.
Acer/Kent/Summit and so on.

jimk1960 said:

Yes any Leblond would be great, if you can afford them, I like that they are US made and you can get repair parts, something that comes in handy with students running them. Summit and Ganesh are good machines but they are imports. All are pricey.
As far as manual mills the market is not so open, sharp makes a good BP clone and they seem to hold up well and you can get repair parts.
As far as CNC machines HAAS does offer a school discount and you can find information for training on line. They also offer scholarship money to students, you have to apply for it as the instructor. I know many will say other machines are better but for the price they are good bang for the buck and you can bet the shop where the student will land will have one.

Click to expand...

They haven't been made in the USA since the late 70's early 80's IIRC.

Kevin

I believe the new LeBlond lathes and castings for new Bridgeport knee mills are all in Taiwan, but Hardinge finishes the Bridgeports here. I've heard rumors that they're considering reshoring the castings as well.

While it's prudent to get working machines on the floor, it might make for a good class project to rebuild one or all of what's there, especially considering that the apples to apples replacements are so expensive. The school likely isn't interested in training machine rebuilders, but (IMO) most shops that are running manual equipment tend to be in the line of repair and rebuild jobs. Even if the students are not making "rebuilding a Bridgeport" their focus, it would be very beneficial to understand the logistics of evaluating a job, physically breaking it down into separate jobs, farming out what you can(or must), reevaluating the work you sent out when it comes back, and managing what's left. IMO the process inspires you to take much better care of your tools as well, as opposed to just waiting for the higher-ups to buy you new stuff, which is something our workforce REALLY needs less of.

In the end, it's up to the school if they want to just buy tools and let the kids focus on using the tools, but IMO it's a bit of an opportunity for the students to get involved.

M.B. Naegle said:

While it's prudent to get working machines on the floor, it might make for a good class project to rebuild one or all of what's there, especially considering that the apples to apples replacements are so expensive. The school likely isn't interested in training machine rebuilders, but (IMO) most shops that are running manual equipment tend to be in the line of repair and rebuild jobs. Even if the students are not making "rebuilding a Bridgeport" their focus, it would be very beneficial to understand the logistics of evaluating a job, physically breaking it down into separate jobs, farming out what you can(or must), reevaluating the work you sent out when it comes back, and managing what's left. IMO the process inspires you to take much better care of your tools as well, as opposed to just waiting for the higher-ups to buy you new stuff, which is something our workforce REALLY needs less of.

In the end, it's up to the school if they want to just buy tools and let the kids focus on using the tools, but IMO it's a bit of an opportunity for the students to get involved.

Click to expand...

You can't image what the "students" do to the machines and the amount of stuff they allegedly steal. I'm back to using the shop at night after a five year break and the decline of the shop during the previous instructor's watch is staggering. Starrett squares, calipers, scribes, scales, etc., etc., disappear with great regularity. Baldor carbide grinder with both tables missing.
Junior/senior students have little or no interest in repair or rebuild.
Rebuilding the B'ports was suggested, need to get a price.
Please keep the ideas coming. I'll share them with the instructor in two weeks.

"You can't image what the "students" do to the machines and the amount of stuff they allegedly steal."

Actually, I can. Back a few years ago when I took an evening class to evaluate surface grinders I was appalled at the amount of tooling and metrology equipment that disappeared. To combat the losses the school started replacing the missing equipment with products from Shars. While they weren't the highest quality, they were certainly sufficient for a learning situation.

Over a few month period the theft rate went to almost zero. None of the kids wanted to be seen with or brag about the fact that they had stolen cheap metrology tools. The school also offered Starrett, Mitutoyo, and other name brand tools to students at discount prices through a local distributor. It was interesting to see that very few tools were sold throughout the course of a semester, but sales spiked as graduation approached. It seems those heading into the profession knew what would happen to their tools should they appear in the classrooms.

As an FYI the company I worked for would give us a dozen or more Starrett 6" rules to hand out as incentives when we went to install equipment in production facilities. At the time they cost about $3.00 each with the discounts. I should have saved a couple. I see today they go for as much as $40.00 depending on where you buy them.

That sounds like a sad and difficult situation with students who would probably figure out a way to wreck a brand new Monarch Model 61. I wonder what it is about the students that leads to this? I mentor in a high school shop in their robotics program and have been to other local high school shops involved with robotics. I do not see the kind of theft and carelessness that you mention. We have decent measuring tools in unlocked toolboxes, and a 2007 cheesy Jet lathe that probably would not survive a real crash, but has suffered no worse than kissed chuck jaws in all the years we've had it. The deciding factors may be that these students are in an academically competitive environment, genuinely interested in learning machining, nearly all serious about getting 4-year STEM degrees, don't have time to screw around, and would not have any idea what to do with a dial indicator even if they did steal one. (That last phrase is not accurate. The kids know what to do with a DTI, but would not know where to fence a stolen one nor do they have home shops where a DTI would be useful.)

reggie_obe said:

Maybe a simple question, maybe not....
New instructor wants to have some manual machines for first year students to learn the basics on.
School shop, four 50 year old Bridgeports, some ProtoTrak CNC, some not. Old abused and tired.
Three old 13" SouthBend flat belt lathes, 2 DoAlls.
A 17" SouthBend Turnado which has had the apron removed and lost.
The above machines would be sold off.
American made lathes and mills would be preferred, but Taiwanese or other quality imports would be considered.
Budget for replacements is unknown. What would you suggest?

Click to expand...

A few CNC routers because they can teach programming at a very low initial cost and little expense in tooling.

rklopp said:

That sounds like a sad and difficult situation with students who would probably figure out a way to wreck a brand new Monarch Model 61. I wonder what it is about the students that leads to this? I mentor in a high school shop in their robotics program and have been to other local high school shops involved with robotics. I do not see the kind of theft and carelessness that you mention. We have decent measuring tools in unlocked toolboxes, and a 2007 cheesy Jet lathe that probably would not survive a real crash, but has suffered no worse than kissed chuck jaws in all the years we've had it. The deciding factors may be that these students are in an academically competitive environment, genuinely interested in learning machining, nearly all serious about getting 4-year STEM degrees, don't have time to screw around, and would not have any idea what to do with a dial indicator even if they did steal one.

Click to expand...

I must say that the time I was checking out the equipment at the local technical school also coincided with the time that unemployment benefits were being extended for anyone wishing to learn a new career by going to school. More than half the evening classes were people who had no intention of becoming machinists, but more interested in extended unemployment benefits

Nothing left to be said after this.

A school near me bought up BP's at auction for the sole purpose of rebuilding, but may have been the maintenance tech degree. Not sure. Anyways, I would look at rebuilding them with kids, even if from a different class because kids love that shit and BPs are everywhere. Heck, fly out the nearest good repair guy for a week to help you guys and learn the right way.

Otherwise the Wells-index should take more abuse. Used Leblonds 15x54 are everywhere and you can get parts from the US warehouse.

First mill= No DRO
Second Mill-DRO
Third- Acurite Conversational

I wouldn’t go near most of the above machines for a school shop. Rows of 12”x36” Grizzlies are totally acceptable for that use case. No high school student will approach the limitations of those machines, as poor a choice as they may be for a professional business.

The basics will still be learned/apparent, and you will have saved a historically under-funded and under-appreciated department significant money.

Ries said:

Wells Index are the only full size milling machines still made in the USA. Starting at $20K.

Wells-Index Milling Machines

www.wells-index.com

And there are no small manual lathes still made here.
Closest thing is the Canadian/US hybrid Standard Modern. Their 13" starts around $22k

1300 Lathe Series | Standard Modern™ Lathes

Racer Machinery International Inc. is a proud machine tool manufacturer of renowned Standard Modern lathes brand including the well known 1340 Engine Lathe. With over 80 years of history, pride and experience behind every machine.

standardmodernlathes.com

Taiwan made machines are going to be cheaper, next step down.
Acer/Kent/Summit and so on.

Click to expand...

If I am wrong, please add what you know, but I have read that the latest iteration of Standard Modern, is essentially bringing in Asian parts and assembling them Stateside, so a to stay within the letter of the Law, as far as the requirement to buy at home rather than from abroad, as required for many Military Bids.

The SM 1340's I recall seeing while in the CF, did not look like the one in the brochure on their page, other than you would recognize them both as SM lathes by their markings. Different gearbox for certain, would have to see a new one beside the old ones to figure the rest.

Pretty hard to find a decent quality small lathe of any make, of late. Unless you buy new from Wieler or similar $$$$.

No experience with them, but the 'Bear" brand has their upper tier lathes badged as South Bend, and they appear to be a clone of my Colchester Master 2500, judging from the distinctive shift gate for the gearbox. Dunno how they rate as value for dollar.