Need your professional advice

Hopefully posting this here is okay. If not forgive me and feel free to remove or relocate.

So I need some advice from all you professional and highly successful people. I am 42 years old and I will be retiring from the military next year. My plan after was to go to either a technical school for CNC, machining etc. or to college and get my degree in mechanical engineering. The college offers certification in welding, cnc, machining etc as part of the degree.

I have experience in welding (mig and tig) but nothing as paid or commercial. I used to build custom motorcycles for a friends shop and I also for a while fell into building custom furniture for people. That's the background I have.

After reading a couple post here and reading members opions about having a tech/college training its really made me second guess my plan. So my question to you all is what is a guy like me to do to break into this type of work for a living? I want to learn and do it all, cnc, lathe, milling, welding, fabrication etc. I absolutely love doing it and can and have done it from sun up to sun down..

I was 24 when I joined the military so I had real world work life before that so I know it usually takes experience to get the job you want. So how do I get that? I dont care where I start. Ill sweep floors, clean bathrooms etc if that's what it takes to get my foot in. Meaning I'll be the bottom rung and work my way up.

So any advice would be great and thank you for your time.

I would skip any tech school for now. Look for a cnc operator job, probably the easiest way to get started. If you like it, and have any aptitude for it, then *maybe* look at school if you are still interested. I've said it before, and worth repeating. I have a cert from the USDOL for tool & die, a cert from a basic MCX mill class, neither have I ever needed to show/prove to get a job. Don't get me wrong, I learned stuff which helped me be a better 'chinist/programmer, but those didn't get me a job, I got me a job by having the skills/knowledge to do the job.

If you'll get any support from military benefits, I would encourage you to get a ME degree. While there's a great deal I like about being a machinist, if I'd had the opportunity when I was younger I would have gone for the degree.

You can always do machining with a degree, you can't do "real" engineering without the paper.

Now, if getting a ME degree is just spitballing at the moment, or you're not a fan of maths and computer simulations, perhaps pursuing a machining career make more sense. But you'll have more flexibility with the degree.

And 42 (43) is young enough that I'd not let anyone discourage you about the time to get it.

Mike1974 said:

I would skip any tech school for now. Look for a cnc operator job, probably the easiest way to get started. If you like it, and have any aptitude for it, then *maybe* look at school if you are still interested. I've said it before, and worth repeating. I have a cert from the USDOL for tool & die, a cert from a basic MCX mill class, neither have I ever needed to show/prove to get a job. Don't get me wrong, I learned stuff which helped me be a better 'chinist/programmer, but those didn't get me a job, I got me a job by having the skills/knowledge to do the job.

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Well that's my thing. How did you get that experience when you had none to begin with?

When I was in construction (premill life) I couldnt get a job as a carpenter to save my life. Wasnt until I went into the labor union, worked a few years a labor and worked along side the carpenters, gained some more experience and then got offered a job.. so I would assume it's the same for this type of work. Like you said it was the experience that got your the job.

I agree with Mike about the paper not carrying much weight. The reason being for that is the trade schools fail no one that shows up everyday and does the assignments. The degree doesn't mean they retained a damn thing. I have hired many people that had formal machinist training (in theory makes a good looking resume) but didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

That being said, you get out what you put in. If you bust ass at school and read the books cover to cover, do above and beyond, not just the bare minimum to pass. You will gain very valuable and employable skills. I did it and I learned a ton, it set me up for the career I have now.

I think you misread the sentiment in the other thread. Employers do not value the degree itself they value the skills you learned there. You just have to pass the smell test in the interview to prove you weren't part of the "no child left behind" program.

Also, I feel like you think getting a job at a shop is difficult. It's quite the opposite. Shops are desperate for help and there's not enough talent to go around. What ends up happening is we hire people with little or no experience but a good attitude (like you seem to have)and train them.

My best advise if you go that route is to try to learn some measuring skills ahead of time. The #1 thing I look for in entry level is someone that at least understands micrometers/calipers/etc.

Milland said:

If you'll get any support from military benefits, I would encourage you to get a ME degree. While there's a great deal I like about being a machinist, if I'd had the opportunity when I was younger I would have gone for the degree.

You can always do machining with a degree, you can't do "real" engineering without the paper.

Now, if getting a ME degree is just spitballing at the moment, or you're not a fan of maths and computer simulations, perhaps pursuing a machining career make more sense. But you'll have more flexibility with the degree.

And 42 (43) is young enough that I'd not let anyone discourage you about the time to get it.

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I have my GI Bill that I was going to use for a degree. I dont mind math. I've forced myself to enjoy it now hahah...still not my strongest attribute. Sitting in front of a computer all day isnt my favorite either..lol..but I'll do it if it gets me to my end goal..

If you dont mind me asking, why would you go back do ME over a machinist?

Iam sure I wont be a millionaire being a machinist and that's okay with me. The job being rewarding and constantly learning is enough for me..

Ndfan6464 said:

Well that's my thing. How did you get that experience when you had none to begin with?

When I was in construction (premill life) I couldnt get a job as a carpenter to save my life. Wasnt until I went into the labor union, worked a few years a labor and worked along side the carpenters, gained some more experience and then got offered a job.. so I would assume it's the same for this type of work. Like you said it was the experience that got your the job.

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Well that part was some luck, some mechanical aptitude, some drive. Started as a janitor, knocked that work out in about a half day (daily chores, sweeping, mopping, cleaning, etc) , so I helped maint in the afternoons, from there helped maint and the newly minted toolroom. Got offered an apprenticeship, took it and ran, and here I am still.

As AJ said, lots of shops needing warm bodies at this point. Just be honest, say you have no experience but want to learn. Surely someone will hire you to load parts, and that is your foot in the door....

Ndfan6464 said:

If you dont mind me asking, why would you go back do ME over a machinist?

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I like making things (lifelong), and enjoy designing stuff too. I call myself a machinist AND mechanical designer, which I'm reasonably good at. At times, I've worked with engineers on high-level projects (like a small satellite or astronomical instruments), and had the great luck to have been taken seriously when I made design suggestions to either make fabrication easier, or outright improve the final product.

But I don't have the math skills to be a principal engineer, to lay out the entirety of a project that would require stress analysis, or mass budgeting, or complete understanding of kinematics and efficiency of mechanisms. And the lack of a college degree has held me back sometimes, including not having as deep a "learn how to learn" reservoir than a rigorous approach to engineering school (not a "party college") would have given me.

So that's my take on it. Lesser issues include the low pay many manufacturing jobs offer, relative to other trades like plumbing or electrician's work.

Overall I've been quite happy in my work. But looking back, at twenty years on from your age, I would have tried to make other choices.

AJ H said:

I agree with Mike about the paper not carrying much weight. The reason being for that is the trade schools fail no one that shows up everyday and does the assignments. The degree doesn't mean they retained a damn thing. I have hired many people that had formal machinist training (in theory makes a good looking resume) but didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

That being said, you get out what you put in. If you bust ass at school and read the books cover to cover, do above and beyond, not just the bare minimum to pass. You will gain very valuable and employable skills. I did it and I learned a ton, it set me up for the career I have now.

I think you misread the sentiment in the other thread. Employers do not value the degree itself they value the skills you learned there. You just have to pass the smell test in the interview to prove you weren't part of the "no child left behind" program.

Also, I feel like you think getting a job at a shop is difficult. It's quite the opposite. Shops are desperate for help and there's not enough talent to go around. What ends up happening is we hire people with little or no experience but a good attitude (like you seem to have)and train them.

My best advise if you go that route is to try to learn some measuring skills ahead of time. The #1 thing I look for in entry level is someone that at least understands micrometers/calipers/etc.

Click to expand...

I would agree with you on the no child left behind aptitude. I see it every day in the military..ugh..haha..

I guess being out of the real world work life for so long now I still fill I have to fight to the death for a skilled job position and didnt think about how times have changed within the job pool of employees.

In our transition classes that we have to take before getting out they talked about how trades are hurting for people. But with that said I'd still like to make myself stand out above the rest...

If I did go to a tech school route what would an employer like to see that I learned from that school? Ie specific certification, types of machines, type of work etc.

Do machine shops ever hire someone off the streets with little to no skill and train them up?

And yes iam reading and understanding everything you all have said. Iam just curious.

Mike1974 said:

Well that part was some luck, some mechanical aptitude, some drive. Started as a janitor, knocked that work out in about a half day (daily chores, sweeping, mopping, cleaning, etc) , so I helped maint in the afternoons, from there helped maint and the newly minted toolroom. Got offered an apprenticeship, took it and ran, and here I am still.

As AJ said, lots of shops needing warm bodies at this point. Just be honest, say you have no experience but want to learn. Surely someone will hire you to load parts, and that is your foot in the door....

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MAN THAT'S AWESOME!! I love hearing these kinds of stories and congratulations on your success... hopefully one day I'll have a tenth of success you all have..

Milland said:

I like making things (lifelong), and enjoy designing stuff too. I call myself a machinist AND mechanical designer, which I'm reasonably good at. At times, I've worked with engineers on high-level projects (like a small satellite or astronomical instruments), and had the great luck to have been taken seriously when I made design suggestions to either make fabrication easier, or outright improve the final product.

But I don't have the math skills to be a principal engineer, to lay out the entirety of a project that would require stress analysis, or mass budgeting, or complete understanding of kinematics and efficiency of mechanisms. And the lack of a college degree has held me back sometimes, including not having as deep a "learn how to learn" reservoir than a rigorous approach to engineering school (not a "party college") would have given me.

So that's my take on it. Lesser issues include the low pay many manufacturing jobs offer, relative to other trades like plumbing or electrician's work.

Overall I've been quite happy in my work. But looking back, at twenty years on from your age, I would have tried to make other choices.

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Sounds like you and I have the same personality when it comes to what we like to build. Iam the same way..want my builds to last forever.

I may not have the brain power as well to have the mechanical engineering. Sounds like you'll need to be a genius...hmmm...need to do more research on this...

Milland said:

I like making things (lifelong), and enjoy designing stuff too. I call myself a machinist AND mechanical designer, which I'm reasonably good at. At times, I've worked with engineers on high-level projects (like a small satellite or astronomical instruments), and had the great luck to have been taken seriously when I made design suggestions to either make fabrication easier, or outright improve the final product.

But I don't have the math skills to be a principal engineer, to lay out the entirety of a project that would require stress analysis, or mass budgeting, or complete understanding of kinematics and efficiency of mechanisms. And the lack of a college degree has held me back sometimes, including not having as deep a "learn how to learn" reservoir than a rigorous approach to engineering school (not a "party college") would have given me.

So that's my take on it. Lesser issues include the low pay many manufacturing jobs offer, relative to other trades like plumbing or electrician's work.

Overall I've been quite happy in my work. But looking back, at twenty years on from your age, I would have tried to make other choices.

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I understand where you are coming from...
I made the decision to go to trade school rather than engineering based on not believing I was capable of completing an engineering degree and i didnt want to end up half an engineer....0 machinist and (in my mind) unemployable. I over estimated the competition and under estimated my own abilities.

Ndfan6464 said:

Sounds like you and I have the same personality when it comes to what we like to build. Iam the same way..want my builds to last forever.

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There's worse ways to leave monuments than to have something you've made be used for ages...

I may not have the brain power as well to have the mechanical engineering. Sounds like you'll need to be a genius...hmmm...need to do more research on this...

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It's good to be concerned but not scared about "brain power". The place I worked in when I was younger is one of the best engineering universities around, but I met students who were not "brilliant", but did well by really working hard. I admired them more than the geniuses.

So if you really want it, and are willing to put in the effort, I'd bet you can do it.

Milland said:

There's worse ways to leave monuments than to have something you've made be used for ages...




It's good to be concerned but not scared about "brain power". The place I worked in when I was younger is one of the best engineering universities around, but I met students who were not "brilliant", but did well by really working hard. I admired them more than the geniuses.

So if you really want it, and are willing to put in the effort, I'd bet you can do it.

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I really appreciate your honesty and your confidence in me.

But it sounds like you've been pretty successful in what your doing.

Would you all see an issue with someone like me, walking into your shop and asking if I could say shadow their employees for a day and see what all it really takes to be a machinist and operator? Of course I'd explain myself etc. I wouldnt just be walking in and be like hey yo homie let me shodow yo peeps for a day. Lol...

So I know the upsides of being in this type of work, what would you say would be the downside of this tradework?

Ndfan6464 said:

I really appreciate your honesty and your confidence in me.

But it sounds like you've been pretty successful in what your doing.

Would you all see an issue with someone like me, walking into your shop and asking if I could say shadow their employees for a day and see what all it really takes to be a machinist and operator? Of course I'd explain myself etc. I wouldnt just be walking in and be like hey yo homie let me shodow yo peeps for a day. Lol...

So I know the upsides of being in this type of work, what would you say would be the downside of this tradework?

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Honestly for me looking in what it is now compared to what it was, money money money. I don't think good machinist are paid what they are worth, and there are enough bad machinists polluting the trade I kind of understand....

Mike1974 said:

....... there are enough bad machinists polluting the trade I kind of understand....

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Amen to that.
As i told one little turd....I can handle cocky if you are good. But cocky and incompetent do not belong on the same plate.

Ndfan6464 said:

I would agree with you on the no child left behind aptitude. I see it every day in the military..ugh..haha..

I guess being out of the real world work life for so long now I still fill I have to fight to the death for a skilled job position and didnt think about how times have changed within the job pool of employees.

In our transition classes that we have to take before getting out they talked about how trades are hurting for people. But with that said I'd still like to make myself stand out above the rest...

If I did go to a tech school route what would an employer like to see that I learned from that school? Ie specific certification, types of machines, type of work etc.

Do machine shops ever hire someone off the streets with little to no skill and train them up?

And yes iam reading and understanding everything you all have said. Iam just curious.

Click to expand...

Generically we are talking about CNC mills and lathes, unless you want to specialize in something

I place the most value coming out of school for an entry level position on

(1)Measurement and blue print reading- If you don't know what you're supposed to make and how to check it we really can't go any further

(2)Knowledge of tooling- For fucks sake endmills are not bits! You should have an understanding of metal cutting tools and what situations to use them in.

(3)Set up and operation of the machine- You should be able to set up the work holding and establish offsets on the machine you are running.


Too quickly schools and "the instant gratification" generation leave a lot to be desired in these areas and jump right into teaching/learning programming because it pays more. The problem is you can't be good at programming without first being good at the other stuff.

I have had to explain to far too many people why in 3 months on the job they don't have an office next to mine.

We have hired plenty of people off the street and trained them. We have even paid for good performing up and comers to go to schooling. Many other shops do the same.

Ndfan6464 said:

I really appreciate your honesty and your confidence in me.

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I'm always happy to help out someone I've never met.

It's the people I do meet that worry me!

But it sounds like you've been pretty successful in what your doing.

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I'd say I've done well, but mostly when in the right environment. There is a part of me that will always regret leaving the school I mentioned, and starting my own place. I really liked being around smart people, and now I just have myself for company. But Covid's put a halt to too much mingling for the time being, for me anyway.

Would you all see an issue with someone like me, walking into your shop and asking if I could say shadow their employees for a day and see what all it really takes to be a machinist and operator? Of course I'd explain myself etc. I wouldnt just be walking in and be like hey yo homie let me shodow yo peeps for a day. Lol...

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For insurance reasons, that would likely be very tricky. I think you might look at some serious time spent searching through the vast array of machinists on Youtube to find the guys who show the real-nitty-gritty of shop work, so you can see the routines, the methods, the efforts involved, etc. You could start a new thread asking for recommendations for channels to check out.

So I know the upsides of being in this type of work, what would you say would be the downside of this tradework?

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Up front cost for tools, if your place of work required them. Good measuring tools are expensive, and it's false economy to cheap out unless time is spent searching for good used tools.

It also takes a lot of time to really learn the trade. The basics can come quickly, but to really understand the tricks of setting up work, doing it efficiently, and getting consistently good results can take years. And personal safety, knowing how to respect the power of the machines can be an issue for some, like people who grew up playing games where there's a reset when you die.

Machines don't reset...

But you have the advantage of being in the military, there's no resets there either.

Last, you might think about the distinction between production and development or job shop work. I've preferred the latter, as I like to do new things as much as I can. But you might find more job offers for production, especially during your "learning the ropes" period.

This site is a great resource for someone wanting to learn. Read, ask thoughtful questions, and you'll get a good start on your education.

After I finished school and started in a shop I realized that two of the classes I took were particularly useful: Blueprint Reading, and Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing.

Blueprint reading was just what it sounds like, what all the symbols mean and some basic math so you know whats what. It was a mind numbing exercise in memorization, but I can't think of anything I learned that I don't use almost daily.

GD&T was where they stuck you in an inspection room with a bunch of weird parts and prints for those parts without numbers. You had to fill in the numbers based on what you measured. The point was just to get practice using measuring tools. For a lot of tools you just need to get muscle memory for how to use them right.

I wouldn't worry to much about finding a job, a more likely problem will be deciding which offer to take.

I don't know how it is in other places but around here this is a business where everybody knows everybody else, and personal reputation is the main currency that drives everything.

Thank you for your service.
ME would be a good idea.
Perhaps a part time job in a machine shop during this new adventure?
Then get a full time job and go for a MBA part time.
Bob