Phase Perfect With Transformer

Degull · Dec 30, 2022

Hi everyone. I have the opportunity to buy a Phase Perfect PTE010R-S1 that outputs 230V three phase from a 230V single phase. I need three phase 575V for my Schaublin 150 lathe with multiple motors. At the moment I am using an RPC with a transformer but it is very loud in my very small shop. Is it possible to use a transformer to step up the 230V three phase to 575V from the Phase Perfect converter? Thanks.

Fernando

rklopp · Dec 30, 2022

Yes you can do this. Search my posts in the Euro-mill forum about powering my Aciera F5 on 240-V single phase via a Phase Perfect and a pair of 240-600-V transformers in an open delta arrangement. The same setup worked fine with an RPC. Be super careful with grounding and fusing if you build such a setup!

Degull · Dec 30, 2022

I am worried that I could hurt the Phase Perfect converter. I was hoping that I could use the transformer that I am already using with my RPC setup.
I snapped a pic of the transformer data plate.

thesjg · Dec 30, 2022

Degull said:
I am worried that I could hurt the Phase Perfect converter. I was hoping that I could use the transformer that I am already using with my RPC setup.
I snapped a pic of the transformer data plate.

Transformers can be wired in front of or behind a Phase Perfect. The Delta to Wye you have should work fine if it's sized appropriately and already feeding your lathe.

The PTE010R (as opposed to the PTE010RQT) may or may not be appreciably quieter than your existing rotary. The inductors in the Phase Perfect's ring similarly to a transformer. The non-QT models of PTE have a single inductor instead of two, to reduce cost a bit, and as a result ring (or buzz, or sizzle, depending on who you ask) a bit more loudly.

Either way, Phase Perfect's are an incredible upgrade for a lathe and much appreciated when doing frequent starts and stops -- the voltage balance on the generated leg drags a spindle motor up to speed significantly faster in general.

rons · Dec 30, 2022

Can you post a picture of the connection terminals?

Degull · Dec 30, 2022

rons said:
Can you post a picture of the connection terminals?

I just left my shop and will not be back for a few days. I’ll snap a pic when I get back. Which connection terminals are you referring to?

bob · Dec 30, 2022

I ran a 7.5 hp 575volt motor with PP and transformer for several years no problem. I still have it setup though I dont need high volts right now

Degull · Dec 30, 2022

thesjg said:
Transformers can be wired in front of or behind a Phase Perfect. The Delta to Wye you have should work fine if it's sized appropriately and already feeding your lathe.

The PTE010R (as opposed to the PTE010RQT) may or may not be appreciably quieter than your existing rotary. The inductors in the Phase Perfect's ring similarly to a transformer. The non-QT models of PTE have a single inductor instead of two, to reduce cost a bit, and as a result ring (or buzz, or sizzle, depending on who you ask) a bit more loudly.

Either way, Phase Perfect's are an incredible upgrade for a lathe and much appreciated when doing frequent starts and stops -- the voltage balance on the generated leg drags a spindle motor up to speed significantly faster in general.

My space is small and the RPC is loud, I have to wear ear protection in order hear myself think. Thanks for letting me know about the buzzing or ringing. I’ll try to hide the phase perfect away in the rafters above me.

johansen · Dec 30, 2022

Degull said:
I am worried that I could hurt the Phase Perfect converter. I was hoping that I could use the transformer that I am already using with my RPC setup.
I snapped a pic of the transformer data plate.
View attachment 382741

That looks like the ideal transformer to step up to 600, because you can ground the neutral of the 600volt side.

The 240v is delta and will not affect your phase perfect.

If you are paranoid, wire 3, 500 watt 120v halogen lamps in series with the 240v connection. They should not light up. If they burn out something is wrong

rons · Dec 31, 2022

Degull said:
I just left my shop and will not be back for a few days. I’ll snap a pic when I get back. Which connection terminals are you referring to?

The only ones of interest are for the incoming/outgoing wires.

Stirling · Dec 31, 2022

I have a pt355 that outputs to a 240-400v isolation transformer that feeds my lathe. It also has a haas vf2 connected to the 240v 3 phase pp output before the transformer.

I run both machines at the same time without an issue for many years now.

Under heavy loading I do see voltage sag at the Pp but jt the legs are equal within 1-2v
Sag may go from 245v then run down to 235 under heavy cuts (20hp lathe roughing)(maybe I need a bigger feed wire to it?)

If I’m doing heavy roughing I just take care not to run the 2nd machine hard.

My pp does make a sizzling noise. It’s not to bad, but the transformer makes the stereotypical transformer buzz which makes me want to keep the earmuffs on while in the garage.

SteveEx30 · Dec 31, 2022

I have an older PT330 and newer PTE series.. both amazing units. The newer "enterprise" line is noticeably louder... you will want to put it in another room trust me. Where as my PT330 is fine on the wall next to the machine.

Degull · Jan 1, 2023

thesjg said:
The PTE010R (as opposed to the PTE010RQT) may or may not be appreciably quieter than your existing rotary. The inductors in the Phase Perfect's ring similarly to a transformer. The non-QT models of PTE have a single inductor instead of two, to reduce cost a bit

I noticed that the QT is the quiet option when ordering a new phase perfect converter. I’m wondering if I can add that option or is that something that has to be done at the factory. I will reach out to phase perfect and ask.

johansen · Jan 1, 2023

Stirling said:
Under heavy loading I do see voltage sag at the Pp but jt the legs are equal within 1-2v
Sag may go from 245v then run down to 235 under heavy cuts (20hp lathe roughing)(maybe I need a bigger feed wire to it?)

I doubt that is going to change anything; the 10hp phase perfect i bought for parts from someone on here is the two inductor model, the inductors are 10 awg wire.. a lot of it, wound in 4 layers separated by wood sticks so air can blow through it to cool it off. at 30 amps they aren't going to get particularly hot but 100 feet of it is still .1 ohms. at 30 amps that is a 3 volt drop. if you are overloading yours then i would expect the same 3% drop under full load.

the ten volts drop under heavy load is likely about half resistance losses in the inductors, and half... is the voltage you have to let the output drop so that the electrical control system can work without overshoot and dangerous oscillation in output voltage.

the igbts have a fixed conduction loss that is 1 to 2 volts under load, not quite independent of load but close, and this can be corrected for. but the resistance losses in the inductor can only be corrected for if you are ok with the voltage overshooting by the same amount upon removal of the load.. which it may not be programmed for. secondly because i strongly suspect the inductors are designed to saturate... they may be running in a sort of open loop system where the voltage drops under load and the sag is not corrected. its a lot simpler that way and the system won't oscillate.

thesjg · Jan 3, 2023

Degull said:
I noticed that the QT is the quiet option when ordering a new phase perfect converter. I’m wondering if I can add that option or is that something that has to be done at the factory. I will reach out to phase perfect and ask.

I work for Phase Technologies.

The non-QT models save cost not only because they have one less inductor, but in the case of the PTE010 it can also be put inside a smaller enclosure. The powder coated sheet metal enclosures we build here at Phase are one of the larger cost drivers, reducing the enclosure size drives down what we can sell the Phase Converter for.

The chassis is the only significant difference between the Phase Perfect Enterprise (the economical option) and the Phase Perfect in the Performance chassis. The regular Phase Perfect comes in a larger chassis with room for add-on's installed by our in-house panel shop. The larger chassis also offers better thermal performance, so the PT's are 50C rated, whereas the PTE's are 40C rated. Otherwise, they do the same thing (offer the same electrical performance) with the same major components inside.

So, the short version is, no, the Phase Perfect Enterprise units cannot be upgraded with an additional inductor.

Edit: Comparison chart of the different Phase Perfect digital phase converter models available here: https://www.phasetechnologies.com/products/phase-converters/phase-perfect

Degull · Jan 3, 2023

thesjg said:
I work for Phase Technologies.

The non-QT models save cost not only because they have one less inductor, but in the case of the PTE010 it can also be put inside a smaller enclosure. The powder coated sheet metal enclosures we build here at Phase are one of the larger cost drivers, reducing the enclosure size drives down what we can sell the Phase Converter for.

The chassis is the only significant difference between the Phase Perfect Enterprise (the economical option) and the Phase Perfect in the Performance chassis. The regular Phase Perfect comes in a larger chassis with room for add-on's installed by our in-house panel shop. The larger chassis also offers better thermal performance, so the PT's are 50C rated, whereas the PTE's are 40C rated. Otherwise, they do the same thing (offer the same electrical performance) with the same major components inside.

So, the short version is, no, the Phase Perfect Enterprise units cannot be upgraded with an additional inductor.

Thanks so much for the detailed explanation. I can see why people praise your company so much. I will definitely hang a phase perfect converter in my shop.

johnoder · Jan 6, 2023

My 2004 10HP has performed without issue since new - and has had a step up (to 480) 3 KVA on the out put every bit of that time

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