Dean Smith & Grace 17 Toolroom

FJsapper · Aug 12, 2022

Recently acquired a DSG 17t toolroom lathe I posted about in a few other places but it needs its own thread. Got lucky and it seems to be pretty much free from major issues! I would guess it’s one of a handful that made it to the states but I’m not really sure. I have only found a few described online in forums including the UK anyways. This is a plain bearing machine and seems to have been used a fair amount but not abused. It is equipped with a taper attachment, relieving attachment, steady rest, follow rest, outboard spider, and lead screw reverse.

In my initial inspection the only real defect I can find is a rounding of the forward speed dog clutch. Not sure if somebody popped it out at too high a speed or if it just gradually rounded over time. I think I could fix this by pulling the shaft and carefully milling the flat back to shape? Unless anybody has other ideas that is my current plan whenever I get to it.

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FJsapper · Aug 12, 2022

macsonboy · Aug 12, 2022

i don't have a DSG but have access to one, always been told they are the rolls royce of lathes .

Overland · Aug 12, 2022

FJsapper said:
View attachment 371339

Nice lathe !
A little off topic, but what is the trailer your using, please ?
Bob

FJsapper · Aug 12, 2022

Overland said:
Nice lathe !
A little off topic, but what is the trailer your using, please ?
Bob

This was a 14’ tilt deck trailer from sunbelt. It has a hydraulic squat feature that lets you roll a lathe off pretty easily. This is the fourth machine move I’ve been part of with this type of trailer. The 14-16’ models seem to squat at a little lower angle than the shorter ones.

PDW · Aug 13, 2022

macsonboy said:
i don't have a DSG but have access to one, always been told they are the rolls royce of lathes .

Yeah maybe, they're certainly very well built.

I have a DS&G 17x48 but not the toolroom model, the medium duty version. Pretty new to me so I'm still tooling it up and playing with it. So far I like it a lot.

Interesting comparing it to the Monarch CY of the same capacity. The CY is a lot heavier built and the gearing in the headstock *much* heavier.

For one-off work and short runs, I think the DS&G is a better choice. Wider speed range, more thread-cutting possibilities, bigger spindle bore. For heavy turning & production, I'd take the Monarch.

As I have both, I can make the comparison. The DS&G suits my use-cases better than the CY, especially when you compare the DS&G 2-5/8" spindle bore to the teeny 1-1/2" of the Monarch. That was really the deciding factor for me.

PDW

FJsapper · Aug 16, 2022

Got the relieving attachment engaged today and gave things a few spins by hand, it works! Interesting cam setup under the cross slide. I need to get everything cleaned up and stone down a few spots that were abused. The compound screw probably needs to be replaced. Looks to be some damage which I presume was caused from the relieving attachment being run way too fast based on the rhythmic gnashing evident on the acme portions of the screw. There is also some molestation to the V thread portion in the handle end. All these fasteners and pitches seem a little weird. I think they might all be some weird brit pitch other than 60 degree…

If anyone could take some photos of what a complete DSG compound handle consists of I would really appreciate it! I am definitely missing the handles and whatever the original nut setup was, also the dial lock and whatever kind of ball detent system they had to have a pre-set zero for thread cutting.

FJsapper · Aug 16, 2022

Another interesting feature…the spindle on this machine is huge for its size. I think that’s a function of the plain bearing needing to be quite large etc. Taking a look at the main bill gear and it appears to have been cast as part of the spindle itself. The actual gear teeth seem to have been a ring of a different material that was bolted on and then had the teeth final ground in place perhaps? Interesting choice…

PDW · Aug 17, 2022

FJsapper said:
Another interesting feature…the spindle on this machine is huge for its size. I think that’s a function of the plain bearing needing to be quite large etc. Taking a look at the main bill gear and it appears to have been cast as part of the spindle itself. The actual gear teeth seem to have been a ring of a different material that was bolted on and then had the teeth final ground in place perhaps? Interesting choice…

View attachment 371899

Or somebody did an almighty crash and had to get a new gear ring made & installed.

I don't recall seeing that on mine but I wasn't specifically looking for it, and mine is a roller bearing model not plain bearing.

As it has a 2-5/8" bore I'd expect the spindle and bearings to be huge. I'm still tooling mine up.

PDW

FJsapper · Aug 18, 2022

So I didn’t bother to count and just ordered 20x new “oil nipples” aka grease zerks. This mother lover took all 20 and still has some more hiding in the shadows… Surely child labor must have factored into the annual lubrication rates for these machines Jesus Christ!

CBarrow · Aug 30, 2022

Nice machine. We've had a round-top 17T at work and currently have a flat top 17T amongst Deans. The flat top is a bit tired, and whilst the round top we had was in infinitely better condition it did have a noisy gearbox. I was inside the machine carrying out a repair and I found the large spur gear you photograph (for the low range gears) had a crack running from the keyway out towards the edge but it stopped. It was probably two piece like yours but I can't remember now. I mentioned it to management and I think they thought it might self destruct at any moment and so got rid... shame really, it had probably been cracked for a long time and would probably continue to go for many years to come. Certainly repairable. We did keep some attachments including the full collet set but none of our other DSGs have the 'fast-lock' spindle nose so they sit unused unfortunately.

Is the work dog clutch the speed reverse or the quick feed reverse? Worn dogs on the feed reverse is common I think - I would think caused by it being engaged from neutral with the machine at high speed. 'Normal' 17 models don't have the apron lever for the speed control and don't seem to suffer the same problem?

FJsapper · Aug 30, 2022

CBarrow said:
Nice machine. We've had a round-top 17T at work and currently have a flat top 17T amongst Deans. The flat top is a bit tired, and whilst the round top we had was in infinitely better condition it did have a noisy gearbox. I was inside the machine carrying out a repair and I found the large spur gear you photograph (for the low range gears) had a crack running from the keyway out towards the edge but it stopped. It was probably two piece like yours but I can't remember now. I mentioned it to management and I think they thought it might self destruct at any moment and so got rid... shame really, it had probably been cracked for a long time and would probably continue to go for many years to come. Certainly repairable. We did keep some attachments including the full collet set but none of our other DSGs have the 'fast-lock' spindle nose so they sit unused unfortunately.

Is the work dog clutch the speed reverse or the quick feed reverse? Worn dogs on the feed reverse is common I think - I would think caused by it being engaged from neutral with the machine at high speed. 'Normal' 17 models don't have the apron lever for the speed control and don't seem to suffer the same problem?

I might actually be interested in that fast lock tooling…I’m 90% sure that’s what I have, a D1-6 chuck came with the lathe and it looks nothing like the one mounted. The lathe back plate seems to slip over the top of the spindle and there are square drive screws that engage to this rim.

The dog clutch mates to the apron reverse lever shaft. Apparently the max speed is 132rpm to engage it.

CBarrow · Aug 30, 2022

Yes that sounds like the fast lock nose, certainly looks it in your photographs. It's a bit of a pain to change chucks as it's so easy to get them stuck lifting them on and off! I'm not sure if we would sell the bits tbh, don't actually know what we kept. You'd probably be better off making any fast lock backplates for anything you want to fit?

FJsapper · Aug 30, 2022

CBarrow said:
Yes that sounds like the fast lock nose, certainly looks it in your photographs. It's a bit of a pain to change chucks as it's so easy to get them stuck lifting them on and off! I'm not sure if we would sell the bits tbh, don't actually know what we kept. You'd probably be better off making any fast lock backplates for anything you want to fit?

Well if it’s ever entertained keep me in mind.

I haven’t thought much about the chuck issue yet, I have a three and four jaw so hopefully I can make those work in the meantime. A collet setup like 2J or something else big would be very much appreciated.

FJsapper · Nov 5, 2022

Got the machine up and running! My belts were thrashed so bad they wouldn’t engage the drivetrain. Have new ones inbound.

Got the chuck off, wow, what a crazy amount of work they put into this fast-lock system. It’s apparently monolithic to the spindle….going to need to figure out a solution because I am going to need a collet chuck.

I can make a back plate for a chuck, sure, but I’d rather have an adapter I can put any chuck on….any ideas?

The next matter is addressing the dog clutch for the LSR. I am pretty sure the shaft has to be pulled but can’t make heads or tails of where to start. I would prefer not to take down the spindle but it seems like that might be the only way to get it off?? The cover plate I’m pointing to houses the end if the shaft and for the life of me I could not get it off. I think it may be retained from inside somehow?

FJsapper · Nov 22, 2022

Got everything running under power! Was able to neatly massage the dog clutches into submission. Getting everything adjusted and in running order now. Filled the headstock with oil and am running through the speeds. Only trouble is I am not getting any oil feed in the sight glass. There was an in-line filter installed at some point and all I did was change the filter. Wondering if that is blocking flow at all?? Anybody know where the oil pump is on this thing so I can verify that is working? My pulley and belts are rotating in the direction indicated on the cover data plate so I don’t think I have a backwards running condition…. Thanks in advance!

FJsapper · Nov 22, 2022

TomBoctou · Nov 23, 2022

FJsapper said:
Got everything running under power! Was able to neatly massage the dog clutches into submission. Getting everything adjusted and in running order now. Filled the headstock with oil and am running through the speeds. Only trouble is I am not getting any oil feed in the sight glass. There was an in-line filter installed at some point and all I did was change the filter. Wondering if that is blocking flow at all?? Anybody know where the oil pump is on this thing so I can verify that is working? My pulley and belts are rotating in the direction indicated on the cover data plate so I don’t think I have a backwards running condition…. Thanks in advance!

Did you replace the filter with the same type you took off? There are some filters that are lower restriction than normal auto filters, maybe your pump can't pump through the restriction of a regular auto filter? I would think a plunger pump like I've seen on most lathes would take a looong time to fill the filter regardless.

FJsapper · Nov 28, 2022

tom_boctou said:
Did you replace the filter with the same type you took off? There are some filters that are lower restriction than normal auto filters, maybe your pump can't pump through the restriction of a regular auto filter? I would think a plunger pump like I've seen on most lathes would take a looong time to fill the filter regardless.

I was able to confirm that the mechanical pump was removed at some point. The external filter must have had a pump hooked up as well but I would not have known that until I pulled the panel and compared what I had to the DSG provided print.

FJsapper · Nov 28, 2022

In other news I found “ye olde triple action apron oil spring.”

Also discovered an issue with the feed trip lever. I can engage feeds but when I go to trip off the lock bar won’t drop down out of position.

https://imgur.com/a/Lgro0L2

I suspect that there is either a spring missing which should drive the bar downwards or oil pressure somehow accomplishes the job (which I am doubtful of). I get no movement when manually rotating the spindle. It’s possible that they intended for gravity alone to drop the gear train out of battery….but if that’s the case it’s a terrible design because time has clearly gummed it up.

I’ll try and dig a little deeper tomorrow.

Dean Smith & Grace 17 Toolroom

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