Project M-1330/No.2

After slightly over three weeks of waiting to arrange a truck to bring the bloody thing down for me, she's finally arrived.



It is both in better shape than I thought, AND worse. Mechanically, it seems quite sound. The bed has wear, but not atrociously so.The serial is #49XXX so I'm assuming it was made in 1949. "Lot 45" if that means anything.

It's been repainted at least twice, grey throughout, and thankfully not too sloppily. (Both appear to have been spray jobs, and some attention was paid to masking.)

I have not yet powered it up. The breaker box is missing it's cover, and apparently each of the four breakers has a sort of safety- I'm told the previous owner, who only used it once, had a piece of wood pressing those contacts down. If anyone knows where I can get a proper cover, I'd be grateful.

It's currently wired to a static converter, though I don't yet know what that is rated to. PO says he tweaked the wiring from how his PO had it, and it now supposedly works on both speeds.

As I don't have native 3-phase, I'm taking suggestions on how I might set this up in some way better than a cheap static converter. I have a rotary, but that's only good to 3HP- I did get a factory manual with this thing, but I don't see a motor HP rating anywhere.

I don't think we can do it right with a VFD, so either rotary or Phase Perfect? Any other suggestions?

On the plus side, I did get a pretty fair collection of collets and turret tool holders:



Although the only actual turret tools I got was a simple turning tool holder and an incomplete box tool.



Which, as I said in the other thread, is no big- I have a fair crate of turret tooling already.

Now, first question: How do the collets work?

This unit has this hefty end cap...



Into which the collets sort of 'clip', and those sit in this inner collar...



Which, in order to properly actuate, an internal tube pushes it forward. That's easy enough, and a nice dead-length setup, but the problem is, I don't honestly see how the tube is actuated. I think I may be missing some parts?

Here's the spindle end:



Which has a very collet-closer looking thing under the cover, but according to the manual, this is actually part of the bar-feed mechanism. I think. I am not at all sure the handle with the chrome ball goes there- it was loose in the box of tooling, and there's a badly-wallowed-out threaded hole there under the cover... except the cover can't close with the handle installed. So clearly something's not right.



There's also this dangly link and a small shaft collar (which was found loose in the box of tooling)...



And this bare spot where a bracket used to be...



But according to the manual, that's all just part of some sort of power bar feed mechanism. I can find no lever or rod or whatever that actually closes the collets. Any suggestions as to what to look for?

Doc.

The serial is #49XXX

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Nope - they were at 165,000 as of 1920 per serial book - maybe you are just missing a digit

Limi's posting of the early forties "TOOLS" has the M1330 with threaded spindle nose - on page 170 - and no doubt will have at least something to say about those collets

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...ret-lathe-tooling-cats-379889/?highlight=cats

have fun

johnoder said:

Nope - they were at 165,000 as of 1920 per serial book - maybe you are just missing a digit?

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-I was indeed. It's #490XXX. I was given to understand the first two numbers were the year-of-manufacture, is that not correct?

Limi's posting of the early forties "TOOLS" has the M1330 with threaded spindle nose[...]

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-Already downloaded and scoured. My spindle nose is 4-7/8" 6TPI, which the PDF suggests was used on #3 and #4 machines.

And no doubt will have at least something to say about those collets.

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-Nope. I have Limi's PDF, the '59 A "tools" book, a '63 C 'tools', and an apparently original-to-the-machine Service Manual, and none of them even show, let alone describe, this style of collet. I haven't found anything on eBay that resembles them, and didn't even know where to start looking on Hardinge's site. (Several are marked Hardinge, so presumably they at least at one time made them.)

And no offense to your invaluable help, good sir, but I might be reposting these questions in the main antique forum, to maybe get a wider variety of input.

Doc.

No on the dating assumption

It's #490XXX

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From 1939

maybe get a wider variety of input.

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Sounds like a plan

Doc, sir
Yes, you are missing parts for your collet closer. Contact small tools/gahr in Cleveland. THey will have all you need to get up and running. As fur your power issue.. Get a mirror and look for the motor plate and get the values from the motor.. Just a swag on my part but you probably have 3/7 hp motor.. Personally I'd go with a rotary converter. ( try American rotary, they have been most helpful to me in the past)
Hope this helps
Stay safe
Calvin B

Several threads have suggested Gahr, but I've never been able to connect to their website.

What sort of parts do they have? Is it a pretty extensive listing, or just a few crates of decades-old spares and mostly-stripped parts machines.

Would I actually be able to go through the service manual and order pieces by part number?

And, does anyone know if it's possible to convert this thing from what I'm pretty sure is a powered closer, to a manual one?

Doc.

Doc, Sir
Small Tools and Gahr are one and the same.. I was there about three weeks ago and I was in W&S parts heaven. You have to call and ask or try sending a pic and tell them what you need.. Bill will be able to hook you up with what ever you need. They appear to be short staffed during the current apocalypse.. So be mindful of that.
As for going through the parts/service manual I'd say that would be the way to get what you need ( you also need the serial # ) Just speak with them..
Stay safe
Calvin B
PS cool 1330 ya got there.. to bad it doesn't have a powered apron..

Two questions, and probably more later:

One, any idea what this thing originally cost? The more I look at it, the more "damn the expense" features I see, stuff 'built to last'. If it were made today, I'd wager it'd be a $100K machine.

And two, any modern recommendations on a headstock oil? The service manual gives lots of details, but that's mostly data you can't find on modern oils. (At least not easily.)

I have no idea how long the existing oil has been in there, and I'd like to swap it out, maybe even flush the reservoir and change the filter. (If that's even possible at this point.)

... Okay, third question: Can I still get an oil filter for this thing?

The manual says to give the scraper a turn every certain interval, but then to actually replace it after a while. I suppose I could swap the whole unit- it's just pipe thread mounts- for something that takes modern screw-on filters like I put on my Springfield.

Doc.

Hello Doc, Sir
Can't speak as fur the oil needs of a #2 but if it is the same as my #3, headstock oil is iso 46 ( Mobil dte medium in my case) Way oil is good ol' vactra #2 and grease is a ngli type O.
I think gahr/small tools run atf in theirs... YMMV
I do recommend sourcing the type "O" grease.. really made difference in how my machine preformed compared to the tractor supply bearing grease that was slathered in my machine when I got it. Also a good CIRCULATING oil for the head stock is something that I recommend. My machine came to me with some type of anti-friction super oil ( synthetic possibly ? ) that would not let the friction clutches engage..
Not really good for the cork friction material on the 'high' clutch... ( not to mention a bit of head scratching to diagnose )
Beautiful work on your machine BTW.. Keep us posted
Stay safe
Calvin B

The oil reservoir cap on this particular machine- almost certainly original- says this once I stripped the paint off:



I'm using ISO 68 in the big gearhead Springfield headstock, any reason I can't or souldn't use that here, too? I plan to drain and flush the sump shortly- the cap says "once a year", but I suspect it's been many decades since that last happened.

Doc.

Hey Doc, Sir
Cool history in your hand there.. Here's little reference material for ya. Petroleum Service Company | The Pioneer of Online Petroleum Sales
Go to the library section at the bottom of the page and they have a conversion chart for the various oil scales.
As you can see a iso 68 is roughly 300-350 sus so it may be a little heavy for the machine but they are quite forgiving. Small tools runs atf, I run dte medium as I have a unheated shop and the oil is really sluggish in the winter ( plus it's what the engineers at swasey spec'd the machine for ).
Just make sure you get a circulating/(steam)turbine oil as one of the main characteristics is water
separation. Just saying...
On another lube note.. It's your machine and you are free to do as you wish but I would suggest you source type "O" grease for it. Mine came with what I assume was type 2 wheel bearing grease shoved in every one of the almost mind boggling number of zerks. I switched to the type "O" and it really smoothed things out. It's really interesting to me that when you run what the folks that made the machine recommend things just seem to work best. Just my experience and hope it helps you some.
Stay safe ( and keep up the good work )
Calvin B
Ps where is ya in Alaska ? I spent some time around the Soldotana-Kenai area.

calvin b said:

Small tools runs atf[...]

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-Considering the clutch packs appear (on the charts, anyway) virtually identical to automatic transmission clutch packs, I can see why. Probably helps reduce slippage on older machines. I might have to call those guys up and see if I can get a little more of the story.

On another lube note.. It's your machine and you are free to do as you wish but I would suggest you source type "O" grease for it.

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-You mentioned that above, but I'm not having muck luck finding a "type O". Any search just comes up with "O-ring greases" or the like.

I also tried "type 0", as in 'zero', but still didn't see much that stood out at me. What, exactly, am I looking for?

Mine came with what I assume was type 2 wheel bearing grease shoved in every one of the almost mind boggling number of zerks.

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-I've scraped and mopped at least four different 'colors' of grease out of this thing, and lord knows how many more were blended into the muddy-brown swarf-filled blobs. There was a translucent amber, a forest green, a dark reddish and what may have actually been a lithium yellowish-white.

'Course, it's likely been forty years since this thing saw regular maintenance. It's not at all unlikely that it was shipped to Alaska to maybe one of the bases, in the years post-war, and has bounced around from owner to owner for decades. Hell, I'm the fifth owner that I know of, just in the last two years or so.

Ps where is ya in Alaska ? I spent some time around the Soldotana-Kenai area.

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-I'm in that same area. when were you here?

Doc.

Hey Doc, Sir
When ever I see the clutches in my #3 they remind me of a wet clutch on a motorcycle...
The hi/low clutches see odd to me though especially the 'hi' clutch and it's 'natural' fiber clutch material. I've seen those fibers that you pulled out of the oil filter before...
As fur the type "O" grease.. take a gander at the PSC oil company link I posted above and look up grease. Type 'O' is a NLGI 0 grease. Somewhere in the dark recesses of my memory I seem to remember that Master-Mcarr has an outlet in Anchorage and they may have it.. Maybe something you might want to track down.. Also if you need any zerks let me know as they can be hard to source as they are somewhat odd (5/32nds-32 or some such)
What ever head stock oil you decide on just make sure it separates out water as there almost always seems to be condensation in that big open cast iron void.. May even want to add a valve on the drain plug so you periodically drain the water off..
These machine are like a good dog.. with good up keep and if you rub some love on them once in a while they will love ya back ! I can't remember if I said this before so sorry if it's a double tap.. But I'm a small job shop so a fifty piece run is a big one for me.. So it's kinda pleasant to run a swasey for awhile. Now I've worked in a production shop on a swasey just making the same part day after day with a boss toading around anxiously wanting more parts.. " WHAT, why aren't you at your machine, parts is rusting up, get back over there!" " Hey Cobby, ya want me to shit in a bucket at my machine or use the flush toilet so I don't share the aroma with all ?" Yeah as I look back on those days it's now my idea of hell. Oh and just a bit of a geezing sidebar here.. 'Cobby' was the shop nickname for the Boss as he would strut about and always say "parts is rusting up, get back to work" and he always looked like he had a corn cob shoved up his ass.. But I digress ( lest I geeze)
Anyhow I think you will find the machine productive and instructive at the same time and who ever gets it after you will have a good machine to..
Stay safe and I hope this has been of some help to you
Calvin B
Ps I was in your area around 1978 or so doing concrete work

I don't know if I'll reach anyone, but I'd like to thank all those that gave me good advice during the course of the ill-fated rebuild thread in the "Antiques" section.

Cal, I appreciate the info on the grease- I knew there were different "viscosities" of grease, but I guess I never really applied that knowledge. Locally, nothing but #2 and heavier is available- I bought a used pistol grip grease gun, and it came with a mostly empty tube of an extremely stiff grease. We're talking spackle stiff.

I'll order some #0 and/or #00, though as per the now-closed thread, I'll be using some way oil in key spots.

Thanks also to those that suggested using ATF- that, too, might have been Cal, forgive me if I've forgotten. I confirmed that with Bill at Small Machines, and he noted that W&S themselves switched over at some point. (I got the impression it was the sixties, but that's mostly just guess.)

I'd also like to thank those that gave input in the great oil-vs.-coolant debate. I see both sides of the issue, but I think in my case, a thin oil would be preferable. Both are going to make a mess, but oil will do less damage (rust, tarnish) to the machine.

For those that were following the thread, fear not, the repair is already underway and the rebuild is continuing. I just got tired of Thermite using my shoulders to stand on so he could shit on more people.

Doc.

The link to Gahr:

Gahr Machine Company - Warner & Swasey Parts, Tools, Manuals

Regards, John

Every time I try that link, my malware alarms go off. But I've spoken with Small Tools- apparently the same company- directly a couple of times now, and bought several accessories from them.

Now, for all those who asked me to "finish the story", so to speak, since I was so close to completion before somebody shat all over my old thread, an update:

I picked up a slug of cold-rolled, and have the replacement sleeve piece about 70% done.



I haven't had much free time in the last few days- hey, I'm only working two full-time and two part-time jobs - but stealing an hour or two here and there I got the slug roughed out. It's cold-rolled, so I have to be careful she doesn't move about on me too much. But I have a TON of things on my plate this week, so pretty much no matter what, I'll wind up leaving it to cool down periodically, and squidge around if it's going to.

Very little of it is particularly dimensionally tight, save for the actual roller bearing bore- and I'm really only worried about stresses potentially pulling the bore slightly egg-shaped.

Stand by. I have customers and orders I have to deal with before we can get back to the fun stuff.

Doc.

Had a little more time today than I'd expected, and after a quick measure showed that very little had moved on me, I went ahead and finished the repair sleeve up.



Not to toot my own horn too loudly, but every dimension is within a thou, as is the concentricity.

The worm shaft and bearing fit perfectly...



So apparently, in some cases, you can fix stupid.

So now all I need to do is bore out the gearbox casting and put a step in it. But before that, I have to get that @&%$! worm gear out of there. Thinkin' I may have to make a tool...

Doc.

Moving this over so I don't keep cluttering up 'Dreamer's thread:

Yeah I kinda figured it might very well be a second op machine.. It's a mystery that that may never be answered.

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-Just for idle musings, as I see it there's three possibilities:

One, the company that ordered it already had a stash of B&S screw machines and/or collets on hand, and liked the idea of the 'new' machine taking them. The only issue being that if this is in fact a Navy machine, as hinted by the anchor stamp on the turret, well, the government, especially in the run-up toward WW2, wouldn't be all that worried about saving money.

Shipboard compatibility, maybe. But then, I kind of doubt anyone installed a turret lathe aboard a ship.

Two, and what I consider most likely, like I said in the other thread, is that it was probably bought as a second-op machine, for which the "dead length" feature would have been preferable. (And such is specifically mentioned in the "Operator's" book.)

Or three, according to the "Tools" book I have, the No.2 with a power automatic collet, such as I have, is apparently limited to 1" bar capacity with the W&S pushout collets. The B&S collets are apparently good to 1-1/4", so it's possible the people who ordered it simply wanted a little more capacity, without the added expense of moving up to a No.3.

Anyhow in my digging about in the turret lathe tool book on page 150 is a listing for 'spindle adapter plates' and that sure looks to be whats on your machine.

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-Which book do you have? Both mine are '59. They're in sections, so there's no "page 150", it's A17 or B23 or C14, etc.

And both list adapter plates- or really, plain backs- but only for A1 or A2 spindle noses.

Mine is very definitely not an "American Standard" nose- it's threaded, with no taper. And I'd be very curious to know what the nose is called, if anything, to see if I could get an actual 3-jaw for it.

I got the machine with a 4-jaw, which I haven't yet tried to mount, but it's also clearly not an original. It's some Yonh Heng or similar modern cheap-Chinese thing, which I'm assuming was bought relatively recently and machined to fit the spindle.

I can of course make my own backplate, I'm just wondering if there's an "official" designation to this thing.

Doc.

Hey Doc,
Yeah I guess I may have tangentially strayed from Sweet Dreamers thread..
Book I have is copyrighted 1938 so it may not be in sync with your copy. <grin> I'll be on the look out for a copy for you. Lot's of that kinda stuff in old book stores around these parts.
The standard listing for a #1 or #2 threaded spindle is a 2 3/8-8p with a 1 5/16 bore.
Check that and if it doesn't match post what you have and I'll compare it to the American spindle type 'A' larger flange as per bulletin A.S.A.5.9 Nov.1936 American standards Ass'n29 W 39th st.New York city (taken verbatim for the turret late tools book) < grin>
Just some musings but what would the navy use a small turret lathe for in 1939 or so for ? Rivets come to mind for aircraft work or something along those lines..
Could of been on a repair ship or a shore facility that was already stock with B&S stuff.. Probably will never know but it's fun to speculate !
Stay safe
Calvin B
Addendum.. open reviewing this thread.. I see that you have already posted the spindle dimensions.. and ,yup it's an "E" 4 7/8-6p spindle.. Should be pretty easy to find stuff for that.. I'll be on the look out for ya..

calvin b said:

Book I have is copyrighted 1938 so it may not be in sync with your copy.

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-John O. suggested getting one in my other thread, so I hit up eBay and bought basically the newest one I could find, thinking it'd be the most complete.

What I hadn't thought of was that it's literally a catalog, people ordered from it. And of course, it's not going to contain parts and materials that W&S don't carry anymore.

So yeah, getting an issue closer to the age of my actual machine would probably have additional information.

I'll be on the look out for a copy for you. Lot's of that kinda stuff in old book stores around these parts.

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-If you could find a 1939 copy, that'd be great. But don't go too far out of your way, there's a '42 on eBay I'll probably pick up.

The standard listing for a #1 or #2 threaded spindle is a 2 3/8-8p with a 1 5/16 bore.

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-Not even close. My spindle nose measures 4-7/8" in diameter and approximately 8-1/2 TPI.

I'll compare it to the American spindle type 'A' larger flange[.]

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-Well, we know it's not an "A" type spindle pretty much no matter what. There's no screw holes, no taper, no nothing save for the threads.



The threaded portion is the only part that turns.

Now, it's also worth noting that this isn't a particularly big deal. An actual chuck will just be that much messier with coolant or cutting oil, and I wouldn't be able to use reverse- and even braking too fast could be iffy- thanks to the threaded spindle.

I would like to have the option of a 3-jaw, for the occasions I'd want to use bored-in-place soft jaws for second-op or other motions requiring a little more precision. But really, I'll very likely do 90% or more of my day-to-day work with the existing collet setup.

Doc.