No. 2 Gearbox issue:

Let me ask an odd question to start: How many here have actually done major repairs to their W&S lathe? (Of any size, really.)

I get the impression- and this is in no way derogatory- that while many have used a turret lathe, not all that many have done major repair or service. There's certainly not a large amount of how-tos, either posts or videos, online.

I finally got my gearbox back together...



But it took a lot of work. There's very much a solid, fixed order it has to be reassembled in, which is not always obvious or clear. Several times I had to extract parts I'd just installed, in order to install another part.

One of many such cases where it's easier to pull it apart than put it back together. I wanted to detail it well enough so that a write-up would help others, but really, less than midway through, I was so pissed off I was throwing tools.

Knowing the 'order of battle' beforehand would have been a huge time and frustration saver.

Anyway, the reason for this post: I have the gearbox itself repaired and reassembled, and all six speeds turn smoothly and quietly. (At least by hand, I have yet to attend the electrics on this machine.)

But once installed, it feels like the clutch is dragging. Turning the capstan wheel feels like a 'brake' is on somewhere, and turning the feed rod by hand advances the turret- as if the clutch were engaged, but in this case, the clutch handle hasn't been raised.

Remove the gearbox, and both the internal gears/clutch and the turret slide itself move smoothly and freely. So something about the two pieces being assembled together pushes the clutch together. I know for a fact I reassembled the clutch properly- I took extensive photos when disassembling, and as noted, there's really only one way several of these parts can fit together.

Any suggestions? The unit moved smoothly and freely before I took it apart. I have no parts left over. I've checked for burrs or damage, the clutch engagement lever itself seems to move smoothly and actuate properly- although as I said, it seems the clutch is always engaged.

And of course there's absolutely no access to any of it when it's assembled. The only way to get into gearbox is through the bottom opening.

Doc.

Does the clutch work by levers alone, or is there oil pressure involved ? If not oil pressure, could lack of oil level be a factor ?

If all levers and such, how would an adjustment be done ? Can adjustment be loosened ?

texasgunsmith said:

Does the clutch work by levers alone, or is there oil pressure involved ? If not oil pressure, could lack of oil level be a factor ?

Click to expand...

-No, no oil pressure. The gearbox is entirely splash lubed (or rather "trickle down" lubed ) from an oil cup that feeds the worm gear.

The clutch is actuated by that lever immediately to the left of the star wheel. Raise that, and a camming surface on the inside end pushes the clutch cone arrangement together.

If all levers and such, how would an adjustment be done ? Can adjustment be loosened ?

Click to expand...

-That's one of the things that gets me. Near as I can tell, there's no adjustment whatsoever. If the cone wears, I see no method whatsoever to take up any slack.

That said, this thing's some eighty years old, and surely has many tens of thousands of hours on it, and the gears- including the worm and worm gear- look pristine. Not "good for their age", I mean they're cherry, appearing nearly new.

I removed no shims or spacers, no stacks of belleville washers, etc. and there's no threaded adjustment of any form.

Doc.

DocsMachine said:

-That's one of the things that gets me. Near as I can tell, there's no adjustment whatsoever. If the cone wears, I see no method whatsoever to take up any slack.

That said, this thing's some eighty years old, and surely has many tens of thousands of hours on it, and the gears- including the worm and worm gear- look pristine. Not "good for their age", I mean they're cherry, appearing nearly new.

I removed no shims or spacers, no stacks of belleville washers, etc. and there's no threaded adjustment of any form.

Doc.

Click to expand...

With some gear boxes and trans I've seen, clutch disks/plates, and cone type like synchronizers, natural weight or direction of parts may make it feel sticky or engaged while un-powered.

But when power is applied, oil film and momentum open those mating surfaces so its not sticky or engaged. Maybe that ? I'm not sure, but might need to power up to it to know.

Well, it was smooth and snag-free when unpowered (I never did try the turret feed the brief times I powered it up) before I took everything apart.

Though I have, for the moment, kind of been hoping the same thing. As I said, the gearbox apparently gets "trickle down" lube from the worm wheel. There's a big Gits cup on the side, next to a brass tag that says "Oil Worm Liberally Every Day" (which, as a friend notes, would make a good belt buckle ) and that feeds in to a sort of trough that the worm spins through.

It would appear that oil drips off the shaft and worm and 'rains' down onto the rest of the gearing. (The bearings at the ends of the rods have their own grease zerks.)

So I'm sort of hoping that a liberal oiling may free things up a bit. But I'm also afraid that applying power may score or gall something that's being pressed together in the wrong way, so I was hoping to run across somebody else who's dived into one of these things, and had a little insight.

It'll be a bit before I get the electricals up and running, so hopefully we can maybe get this sorted out a bit better before I light it up.

Doc.

Just out of curiosity. I know some or all of the machine will now take ATF. Does this gear box take it, and was that the lube you used for assembly ?

Prior to dis-assembly, do you have a guess what kind of lube it was that drained out ?

I was recently building a compound rest on the bench. This sort of stuff I usually build with ATF, clean and wipe with it also. Anyway, I found the rest sticky when totally assembled, but when I had only set the gib, it was real sweet. Messing around, messing around. . .still sticky. Finally for some reason I grabbed my oil can with heavy/medium dte. . . Just shooting it with the DTE, bam, smooth as can be.

There was nothing to "drain", it's a total-loss system.

That oil I said "rains" down on the gears, then simply drips out the bottom of the gearbox. There is no reservoir, no sump, no pump, etc. It's much like a classic small QC gearbox such as for a Southbend, Logan or Sheldon. There's places to oil, but no sump, no supply. Just oil cups.

The book suggests what's basically 30wt for the places that need oil, and that's what I used.

Doc.

Hey Doc,Sir
Try loosening the thrust collar on the pinion shaft. (the shaft that the capstan wheel turns, it's on the back side of the lathe from the operators position) I had this same issue and it turned out to be the thick assed tar like grease that was crammed into my machine.. May just need to run a bit to 'wear' in.
I'm going to be out and about today but I'll look at my machine and if I have any 'flashes of in sight ' I'll pass them on..
Stay safe
Calvin B

Said thrust collar and bearing is currently sitting in the drip tray. Can't get much looser than that.

(I hoped that a thunk or two from a rubber mallet on the end of the shaft would help things seat- made no difference whatsoever.)

Doc.

Hey Doc, Sir
" Said thrust collar and bearing is currently sitting in the drip tray. Can't get much looser than that."
There's your problem ! The thrust bearing and cap have to be installed to adjust the clutch. As it stands now your clutch is engaged.. At least that's how it works on a #3.
See item # 11 & 12. Eleven in the set screw to lock the clutch adjuster and #12 in the adjuster. In one of your previous post you skimmed it a bit to clean up the burrs.
Hope this helps ( and , yeah I know #3 knowledge might not apply to a #2 )
Stay safe
Calvin B

Huh. Apparently I've been neglecting my manual, I hadn't even considered that that thrust bearing was also the adjustment. Once you point it out, yeah, it's obvious. There's a forehead-slapping moment for ya.

However, I must report it also wasn't a cure.

I can make adjustments, but apparently only from "some drag" to "a lot of drag". There's no setting that allows free movement. The adjuster essentially sets preload on the clutch, but however I managed to set my particular unit up, there's always some preload, even with the adjuster entirely removed.

BUT... it gets me a little more understanding of the mechanism. I didn't have much time to do more than just poke at the bearing a bit today, hopefully I can find the time to do a more thorough analysis later in the week.

Doc.

DocsMachine said:

... cure.

I can make adjustments, but apparently only from "some drag" to "a lot of drag". There's no setting that allows free movement. The adjuster essentially sets preload on the clutch, but however I managed to set my particular unit up, there's always some preload, even with the adjuster entirely removed.

Click to expand...

Why "cure" what was designed-in?

Preload - so long as there is power enough, or hand-lever mechanical advantage enough, to overcome it - provides resistance to the goods being bumped or vibrated out of where the positioning mechanism most-recently parked them a-purpose.

Reduces risk of uncertainty entering the equation, and cheaply so.

If it was not built-in to the clutch, the designers might have had to add a separate stabilizing system.

IOW, it is a "feature, not a bug"

Hey Doc, Sir
Well you may have to make a spacer/shim to get things working but really I think you just have 'grease stick'. I think that when you assembled the gear/clutch you greased it and now it's just stuck together and needs a bit of a run in. I think you will find it will be OK when you get the machine powered up.
Just as an aside ( as I know this has been addressed elsewhere ) W&S had a lab and pretty good engineers ( probably the best that could be had) and they designed and spec'd things for the recommended lubricants. Like I've said before the 'type 'o'' grease ( ngli 0) is thn as can be and the tolerances in the machines are made for THAT grease and the machine preforms best with what it was made for.
Not an issue with your clutch issue but can be an issue else where.
Stay safe
Calvin B

thermite said:

Why "cure" what was designed-in?

Click to expand...

-Excuse me? Before I messed with it, there was no drag. The turret moved smoothly, hindered only by a significant amount of built-up dirty grease. Without the apron, the turret ram moves easily and smoothly, as one would expect.

Preload - so long as there is power enough, or hand-lever mechanical advantage enough, to overcome it - provides resistance to the goods being bumped or vibrated out of where the positioning mechanism most-recently parked them a-purpose.

Click to expand...

-Um... You did note the part where I said the clutch remains engaged? That means it's going to try and constantly feed the turret into the work. That's like trying to use an engine lathe with the traverse feed constantly engaged.

In order to use the machine as it sits, it not only would take considerable additional effort to move the turret, it would also require the operator to constantly hold the capstan wheel to KEEP it from feeding.

I feel dumber for having to have answered that.

IOW, it is a "feature, not a bug"

Click to expand...

-You're a moron.

Doc.

calvin b said:

Hey Doc, Sir
Well you may have to make a spacer/shim to get things working but really I think you just have 'grease stick'. I think that when you assembled the gear/clutch you greased it and now it's just stuck together and needs a bit of a run in. I think you will find it will be OK when you get the machine powered up.

Click to expand...

-I used oil when I assembled it, although with a touch of grease on the four spring-loaded pins.

I was in fact kind of hoping that getting oil- from the trough system one is supposed to use- would free things up, but I hate to run it with the clutch probably constantly engaged. If I start badly wearing or scoring the clutch cones, those parts are both very difficult to replace, and likely very close to unobtainable.

I would very much prefer to resolve the issue before incurring additional damage.

[T]hey designed and spec'd things for the recommended lubricants.

Click to expand...

-Yessir. And the gearbox quite clearly indicates the use of oil. I'm given to understand that the "runoff" of oil from the worm geartrain "rains" down on the rest of the gearbox to keep it lubed.

I copied a cutaway from my manual, cleaned it up and colored it:



The yellow and grey parts are the worm gear and cone of the clutch assembly. At the moment, even at rest, they're held together fairly firmly. The worm gear (yellow) cannot move to the left (toward the operator) as there's absolutely no adjustment built in. The red object is the engagement lever, and to it's left is a hardened steel cam which the engagement lever pushes against. Neither are adjustable in the least.

The blue object is the collar that helps center the gearbox apron to the turret base. It might push on the cone (grey) but it, too, has no adjustment, no shims, etc. Why would it be pushing more now, than previously?

The bright green unit is the thrust bearing. I can use it to add more pressure to the clutch, but even being completely removed, there's still enough pressure there to keep the clutch engaged.

The teal unit is of course the shaft itself. Something is presumably preloading that shaft slightly to the left, and I'll be danged if I can figure out what that is.

Doc.

Hey Doc, Sir
Try loosening the nut on the capstan and see what happens. I think ( guessing perhaps ?)that because you took it apart and reassembled it that 80 years of subtle wear is manifesting itself. It may just need some run-in time if the clutch engagement is not to serve. I think maybe the capstan side may be 'to tight' and giving the engagement lever a bit of a bind. Rugged yet delicate these things are.. For what it's worth I fought the same thing on my #3..
Stay safe
Calvin B

At the moment, the capstan wheel is only loosely installed- point in fact, there's almost an eighth-inch gap between the wheel and the casting. I didn't want to fully seat it- it's on a taper, and requires a puller to remove- until I had the whole arrangement working properly.

Whatever the issue is, it's wholly internal.

Doc.

Hey Doc, Sir
How are you determining that the clutch is engaged ? Are you providing motion to it via the lead screw ? If so then the clutch gear is not moving. Were the little spring pins in good shape (#17)? If the lead screw is not moving the clutch seems to always feel 'engaged'. The worm wheel works to pull it ( the clutch gear)back towards the engagement lever with a little help from the springs..
Could the woodruffian key have worked out on assembly and be binding up the works ?
I'm starting to run out of ideas without being there...
Stay safe
Calvin B
PS damned fine job on the illustration by the way

DocsMachine said:

-Excuse me? Before I messed with it, there was no drag.

-You're a moron.

Doc.

Click to expand...

At least you didn't have to walk so far to pick up the tools you didn't have to throw.

Progress.

I'm good wit' dat'!

calvin b said:

How are you determining that the clutch is engaged?

Click to expand...

-Two ways: One, yes, I can turn the feed rod by hand, and the turret ram adavances. And two, using the thrust bearing, I can add more pressure to the clutch, as denoted by the engagement lever. I can loosen it entirely, to the point the engagement lever can actually swing well above the kickout plunger, or tighten it to the point the lever can't be moved at all.

And in all cases, the 'feel' of the turret via turning the capstan wheel remains tight, with varying degrees of drag. I of course played with it some before taking everything apart, and it turned much smoother than it does now.

Were the little spring pins in good shape (#17)?

Click to expand...

-Yes. Pins are clean, springs are fine, everything was assembled with oil and a touch of grease.

If the lead screw is not moving the clutch seems to always feel 'engaged'. The worm wheel works to pull it ( the clutch gear)back towards the engagement lever with a little help from the springs.

Click to expand...

-If one turns the feed rod, the turret advances (or retracts, if you turn it the other way. )You can hold the wheel by hand and keep it from doing so, with the result of the feed rod being much harder to turn if you do that.

The springs and pins act to push the two apart, to disengage the clutch when the handle is down. Those pins simply can't be applying as much drag force as I'm feeling.

Could the woodruffian key have worked out on assembly and be binding up the works?

Click to expand...

-Don't see how it could. I've installed and removed the assembly several times- the key is snug, but is never out of place when disassembled again. And, if the key were dragging on the cone somehow, then tightening the thrust bearing and lifting the engagement lever should seat it into place. I've tried that and it makes no difference. The cone is almost certainly fully seated against it's shoulder.

I'm starting to run out of ideas without being there...

Click to expand...

-I'm already here and I've been out of ideas for a couple of days. (Admittedly my tinkery time has been minimal for the past week or so, but that doesn't keep me from fretting about it. )

PS damned fine job on the illustration by the way

Click to expand...

-That's just a quick photograph from the book, brightened, raised contrast, and some flood-fill colors. One of my four day jobs is, after all, as a graphic artist.

Doc.