Idle Chat: Most tools ever used? Fewest?

I'm getting close to first-chip day with my No.2 and have been pondering the first few small jobs I need to kick through this machine.

Both were relatively simple, but stepped cuts, one OD and one ID. I'd originally been thinking of a couple of boring tools or even a pair of special size drills for the ID, but had a bright idea for a sort of stepped drill.

Which turned out to have already been a common idea- my recently-received '42 "Tools" book shows a "flat drill" holder specifically for pretty much exactly what I had in mind. Meaning if I can mill, heat-treat and grind my own cutter, I should be able to do that cut in one pass with a single tool. (Especially given that it's aluminum tubing to start with.)

The OD, too, I'd originally been wondering if a bar turner or even large box tool could do part of it, then maybe a knee tool, and a grooving tool in the cross-slide.

But looking at the same catalogs (I have a '42 and a couple '59 [or so, if I recall] 'Tools' books) and rereading the "Operator's Manual", I think I can do the same short profile with a single form tool. Or at worst part of the straight section with maybe a knee too, and the profile with a shortened form tool.

Apparently W&S never made a form tool holder for the smaller No.2, save for the circular holder. And this profile needs a wider tool than that. So I'll need to design and make my wn holder as well as the cutter itself.

Which should be worth it- I need to make 100 or more to start with, and it should be an ongoing product.

It's actually kind of a shame- I could have used both ideas on my conventional lathes before this- although the form tool is going to be wide enough, I don't think the short Sheldon or Logan cross-slides would be rigid enough, and of course I don't have the big Springfield up and running yet.

Anyway, I thought it kind of amusing that I was putting together a full-on turret lathe, and the first few parts runs I need to do... don't really need the turret.

I recall back to two of the first products I ran years ago, with my old Logan, back when I had the flat-plate turret fitted. Both used all six positions in the turret, and either one or both sides of the lever cross slide.

And knowing what I know now, I could have reduced that to maybe as few as three in either case- reducing about a 2-1/2 minute per-part cycle down to maybe 90 seconds or less.

So, for those of you who have set up and used a turret lathe (if any such people are even still here and reading ) let's hear about some of your setups. What setup got the most done with the least separate tools? In what setup were you forced to use the most tools?

Doc.

DocsMachine said:

Anyway, I thought it kind of amusing that I was putting together a full-on turret lathe, and the first few parts runs I need to do... don't really need the turret.

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That's my situation as well. The first project I have planed for this "Turret Lathe" is actually a milling operation with a custom cutter in the spindle and the work-piece on the cross slide. The turret won't be involved at all.

So why didn't I just buy a mill, you might ask? Well, I couldn't find a good vertical mill for this price or I would have bought it.

For me this is just a "cutting machine". The fact that it has a multi-tool turret is just icing on the cake. Maybe some day I'll actually use the turret.

Hey Doc,
I set up and run my #3 a few times a week.. So folks do still set them up and use them. More than a few shops around here have one in the back corner set up for the odd job or two.
I do short runs of things so I value more of a general set up rather than a "job specific" one.
So with that said.. I don't usually spend alot of time making form cutters and such. I do tend to use the same tool for multiple cuts. Think of a slide tool used as a knee tool.. one pass on the high side of the stop and one pass ( step) on the low stop.
Basic set up would include a stop on the turret, cut off tool (rear block), facing tool (square turret), some type of turning tool in the square turret, MT holder with drill in turret.
Just add tools as you need them.. One of the most productive things I've found ( and this is just me ) is to write down the operations from beginning to end. I have little numbered clips on the cross slide dial for each op and I write down the roll turret stop numbers in order.. Really not applicable to your machine as you have the cross slide lever instead of dial feed. I'm also somewhat perplexed as to what the W&S thought process was with the #2 as for not supplying it with a multi position stop for the cross slide/ saddle .? Was it designed as a second op lathe ? But I digress..
Oh and one of my favorite 'tricks' is to use the 'boring and recessing tool' ( pg 40 in your new book) as a 'internal cutoff tool'. That way the boring tool catches the part and my large two piece jaws don't catch it when it bounces off the cross slide and gets mangled whilst being flung into to wall. I do somewhat envy collet machines at times.. Not always possible to do but can be a parts saver when you can..
Don't forget that you can always mount a form tool in your square turret.. Multiple tool holder can be made pretty easy for both turrets..
After one has run an engine lathe for a bit it can be hard to transition to a turret lathe as they take a different type of thought. Engine lathes are 'one op at a time' linear thinking and a turret lathe is how many ops can I do FAST at once.
Hope my ramblings helps as I just know I didn't answer your question very well.
Stay safe
Calvin B

Idle chat on the many ways
that turrets can be used
please chime in with all your thoughts
so the doc can be amused

A multi-cutter holder?
Or a multi-cutting tool?
So many ways to do this
there is no single rule

Design and grind a toolbit
with quadruple cutting forms
you'll surpass the average
and blow away the norms

Your lathe will be a toolroom
with a tool in every slot
and when you manufacture
you'll tie your index in a knot

The doctor has me drooling
to go out and buy some tooling
before I go
please let me know
where I can get some schooling

DocsMachine said:

So, for those of you who have set up and used a turret lathe (if any such people are even still here and reading ) let's hear about some of your setups. What setup got the most done with the least separate tools? In what setup were you forced to use the most tools?

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Nine tools, in an 0AC ... that's probly cheating though, a couple would be for chamfers. You can get three in the cut at once, speeds up metal removal a bunch.

Poosh de buttom and watch da machine make parts

[T]hat's probly cheating though, a couple would be for chamfers.

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-Not cheating at all. There's a LOT of setups shown in the various books that include a chamfering step. There's pieces meant to clamp to the shaft of a boring bar, so that when it reaches full depth, a small blade breaks the edge of the just-made cut.

I figure on most of my relatively short-run stuff, I'll likely do a quick deburr cycle with just a handheld file before shutting the spindle off and removing the part, but on some parts I have planned, I may well try adding a cutter specifically to break edges.

The "flat drill" I've been thinking about, there's no reason at all I can't add another step with a slight radius to do the mouth of the bore as well. Theoretically the OD form tool could, too.

The "Operator's Manual" talks, sometimes in just an offhand way, about doing just that- getting as many operations done in as few motions of the turret as possible.

Doc.

You can get three in the cut at once, speeds up metal removal a bunch.

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-There's a post over in the Antiques section that refers to an old UK book on turret or capstan lathes. I only skimmed it so far, but one section mentions a setup where, presumably thanks to multiple cutters all working at the same time, the operator was removing eleven pounds of steel per minute.

That's pretty impressive even for modern CNC equipment, and that book was written in 1917.

Doc.

DocsMachine said:

-There's a post over in the Antiques section that refers to an old UK book on turret or capstan lathes. I only skimmed it so far, but one section mentions a setup where, presumably thanks to multiple cutters all working at the same time, the operator was removing eleven pounds of steel per minute.

That's pretty impressive even for modern CNC equipment, and that book was written in 1917.

Doc.

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Wow! That's 528 pounds of chips during an 8 hour shift. Or 3/4 ton of chips per day if running three consecutive shifts. From one machine too boot! They must have had an entire chip-removal crew working along side the machinists.

That's something I never really thought about. Who cleans up the chips? At 11 pounds per minute you'd be cleaning away chips pretty darn often. Otherwise the machine and operator would be buried in chips in short order.

Sweet Dreamer said:

That's something I never really thought about. Who cleans up the chips? At 11 pounds per minute you'd be cleaning away chips pretty darn often. Otherwise the machine and operator would be buried in chips in short order.

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One interesting theme from the J.R. Williams "The Bull of the Woods" cartoon books is the number of people shown in the shop setting with brooms or wheelbarrows used for cleaning/carting chips. Ditto the piles of chips around the mills, drills, and lathes.

The books (six volumes) covered industrial America from roughly WWI to WWII, and are well done, even from a historic and sociological standpoint. I have all six, and heartily recommend them.

Lee Valley Tools still have some volumes in stock (2, 3, 6), and at $3 each, they're a bargain:

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/sho...-dvds/46711-the-bull-of-the-woods-volumes-2-6

Milland said:

One interesting theme from the J.R. Williams "The Bull of the Woods" cartoon books is the number of people shown in the shop setting with brooms or wheelbarrows used for cleaning/carting chips. Ditto the piles of chips around the mills, drills, and lathes.

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That's interesting.

In the late 60's I ran a turret lathe in a factory making torch tips for oxyacetylene welding. I have absolutely no memory of removing chips or cleaning the lathe. I probably did that, but it must have been such a trivial part of the job that I simply don't recall having done it. But then again, I wasn't removing 11 pounds a minute. Probably more like 1 pound an hour. So at the end of the shift I might have had 8 pounds of chips to clean out of the drip pan. That wouldn't be much of chore. Not surprising that I wouldn't remember it as being a major part of the job.

So I guess chip removal only becomes a major problem when you need to remove massive amounts of material from large stock. I was making torch tips from stock that was very close to the diameter of the finished torch tip. I remember threading them with a threader on the turret. Drilling several different size holes in the tip. And running a forming tool to shape the tip and then parting it off. The forming operation probably removed the most material.

This was back in the 60's so don't expect me to recall extreme details. I'm thinking the operations went something like this:

1. Start with hexagon bar stock and a stop on the turret.
2. Turn down for the threading operation (turret tool)
3. Cut the threads (die on the turret that opens when threads are complete)
4. Drill and bore various size holes in the tip each hole being drilled to a different depth.
5. Run in a forming tool to shape the torch tip. (forming tool mounted on the cross slide)
6. Finally part off the tip.
7. repeat ad nauseam.

The amount of chips from this entire operation were minimal and basically insignificant. The most chips produced came from the forming operation. If I recall correctly, there was a center guide on the turret that was used to support the tip during the forming operation. And the forming operation rounded the torch tip too. So there wasn't much that needed to be trimmed away during the parting operation.

In fact, now that I've explained all this I do remember that parting off required a bit of care because if parted off correctly the tip would be parted off without any burrs on the nose of the torch tip. Parting it off poorly could result in damaging the tip and being scolded by the supervisor when he came to inspect the parts.

Sweet Dreamer said:

Wow! That's 528 pounds of chips during an 8 hour shift.

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-Well, theoretically, sure. But I'd presume it's a case of taking something like a 60-pound casting or forging, and reducing it's weight by say, 22 pounds in the course of one cycle.

Then spending like four or five minutes pulling that workpiece out of the machine, and lifting/craning the next one in place, getting it properly chucked, and then starting it turning again.

So yes, during that one cut it's removing significant metal, but averaged out over the whole per-part production cycle, the real number might be a third or a quarter of that.

And yes, as noted, in the old machine shops, flunkies with brooms, chip-rakes and wheelbarrows were very much part of the background, making a circuit to keep the machines cleared and the floors somewhat clean.

Along with oilers whose job it was to go around to each machine and lube it, and other support people.

Doc.

DocsMachine said:

flunkies with brooms

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flunkies with brooms?

I'm sure you meant to say, "The Custodial Maintenance Crew"

Keep in mind, without them you'd be knee deep in chips.