A Warner & Swasey Fan - Just bought a No. 3

Hi, not sure where to post this. I just purchased a W&S No. 3 turret lathe. Will be picking it up next week. I've never worked for WS, but I did run WS turret lathe back in the 60's. I finally decided to pick one up and play with it. Here's the one I got:



I really have no idea what it's like. I haven't seen it in person yet. All I have to go by are the photos. It looks to be complete. Although it doesn't include any tooling save for a single collet. I'm looking forward to potentially refurbishing it to some degree. I'm hoping that it might actually work as-is. Like I say, I haven't yet seen it in person and even if I did there's no way to power it up anyway. So it's pretty much a "grab it or not" deal. I got it for basically scrap metal prices so it won't be much of a loss if it turns out to be nothing more than scrap metal.

Hopefully it will actually run and I'll be able to use it and maybe fix it up some.

It will be a fun endeavor either way. I downloaded an instruction manual for it which includes how to disassemble and reassemble pretty much everything on it including the head-stock gears and clutches, etc.

As I say, it came with a single collet, not sure what size, looks to be quite large. Maybe an inch or larger. It's a 16" x 38" machine but doesn't say what the spindle bore is. I also bought a 10" 6-jaw chuck for it, although I'll probably need to make a backing plate to fit that chuck to the lathe. Strangely the instruction manual doesn't mention replacing the chuck or what type of chuck mount is used. So I'll have to figure that out after I get it home.

Anyway I thought I'd share this in case anyone is interested.

I'm sure I'll have tons of questions once I get it home.

It's missing most of the turret tooling, the cross slide turret, and the bar feed stock tube & support.
It's set up for collets, but I don't see any laying near it.

No chuck either.

So you are trucking up to HGR ?

Their book TOOLS says both the M-1200 and M-2200 have the A 6 spindle nose - the chucks are attached with thru bolting

digger doug said:

It's missing most of the turret tooling, the cross slide turret, and the bar feed stock tube & support.
It's set up for collets, but I don't see any laying near it.

No chuck either.

So you are trucking up to HGR ?

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I'll be picking it up tomorrow if everything goes well. I hope it turns out to be a usable lathe, at least for hobby work.

I bought a 10" chuck I'm hoping to be able to adapt to fit it.

johnoder said:

Their book TOOLS says both the M-1200 and M-2200 have the A 6 spindle nose - the chucks are attached with thru bolting

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That sounds good. It should be easy to make a backing plate to fit it then.

If this was from HGR, which I think it is, they pulled the chuck off and have it in a lot by itself for sale. I believe it was either a air or hydraulic chuck. It appeared to have some kind of draw tube attached to it. But what do I know? Squat about things. Ken

4GSR said:

If this was from HGR, which I think it is, they pulled the chuck off and have it in a lot by itself for sale. I believe it was either a air or hydraulic chuck. It appeared to have some kind of draw tube attached to it. But what do I know? Squat about things. Ken

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It has a collet closer and a single collet in it. I don't know if it's a hydraulic collet closer or a manual. I'm hoping it's manual.

From the picture, it sure looks hydraulic. I've never seen that particular style of closer, but it sure looks like a small ram at the bottom, and a pivot just above.

Mine was an electric power drive, and missing the motor when I got it. I'm converting it to manual, myself.

I haven't ever used one, but I'm not sure I'd recommend an air or hydraulic chuck for a home-shop type machine. But thankfully, A6 is common and you can find all sorts that will bolt right on.

Unlike mine that was apparently special-ordered to accept Brown & Sharpe collets. Fitting any kind of chuck is a custom-handmade-backplate situation.

Doc.

Sweet Dreamer,
Iff'n your going to be at HGR just swing around the corner and go to gahr/small tools and see Bill.. He has everything you can imagine for your # 3. AND he will be a great source of info.
That sure looks to be a hydraulic collet closer.. "Should" be standard collets..
Not to steal your thread but here is a pic of my 'adaptation' of #4 collets to my #3.. in action..( square stock being made into 5/8-11 bolts)
Stay safe
Calvin B

If you havent read it yet here is a great thread by docs machine on his WS turret lathe that came ready to run...
Help with a Turret Lathe

calvin b said:

Sweet Dreamer,
Iff'n your going to be at HGR just swing around the corner and go to gahr/small tools and see Bill.. He has everything you can imagine for your # 3. AND he will be a great source of info.
Calvin B

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Thanks for the tip Calvin. Not sure if I'll have time this trip. And I certainly won't have any money left to spend having buying this one at scrap price. Scrap is about all I can afford to buy. I'm thinking think any serious accessories are likely to cost me more than I paid for the lathe.

In fact, I just passed up a W&S #4 that sold for the same price as the one I got. It also had a 60" bed. But it had a beautiful 12" 4 jaw chuck! You were basically buying that beautiful chuck and they were tossing in the rest of the lathe for free.

The problem is that the #4 was just a tad bit larger than I wanted. It also weighed almost twice as much as the #3. So I grabbed the #3 with no chuck.

They have another #3 there too for slightly more money, but it actually has less tooling, and no chuck or collet. So I grabbed the one I did. Only time will tell whether I got something worth playing with or if I just bought scrap metal. Either way I think I'll be happy. I'll have fun with it even if it does turn out to be total garbage.

I'm just now thinking about starting up a small retirement business buying junk machines from HGR and refurbishing them to resale. It won't be a money-making business, but with any luck it will pay for itself and I'll be able to play around with machines and maybe pick up a few things for myself along the way.

So I'll probably be going back to HGR at some point, I make it a point to look up Bill at that time. I'll have a better idea of what kind of tooling, or accessories I might want by then too, and hopefully more money to spend.

I'll also be picking up a couple 3PH motors from HGR. One is 5 HP and the other is 7.5 HP. I'm hoping that I'll be able to make a rotary phase converter from one of these motors. Their cheap enough to experiment with. Hopefully I'll get something that's usable in the deal. I don't live close enough to HGR to go shopping in person much. So I kind of glean through their online listing and just pick out things that look like they might be a good deal. It's a gamble. We'll see how it all worked out in the end very shortly.

By the way, they have what appears to be a truly beautiful South Bend engine lathe complete with taper attachment. They're asking about $2,500 for it which is probably pretty reasonable if it's as nice as it looks in the photos. Check it out: Inventory Number 0720-179-0001

I'd buy it in a heartbeat at $2,500 if I could afford it, but sadly I can't. The lathe I'm picking up was peanuts compared to that. In fact, I used to own a South Bend almost exactly like that one. I really miss that lathe! But I had no choice but to get rid of it at the time. Life goes on.

Sweet Dreamer said:

I'm thinking think any serious accessories are likely to cost me more than I paid for the lathe.

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-That's true of nearly any machine tool. Especially cheap used ones. In raw dollars paid (over several years) I'm sure I have more in just turret tooling (about 300lb worth) than I have in the lathe.

So I grabbed the #3 with no chuck.

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-I am by no means any sort of an expert on these things, but I believe the No.3 is the closest to an ideal small-shop/home-shop turret lathe. It's not much bigger than the #2 (which is bulky, but not excessively so) but has a much more versatile carriage. Not the same as, but much closer to an engine lathe carriage than the simple cross-slide I have.

And a #4 and larger are all far too big for anything like hobby work, unless your hobby is restoring oil derricks and steam locomotives.

Doc.

Sweet Dreamer said:

I'm just now thinking about starting up a small retirement business buying junk machines from HGR and refurbishing them to resale. It won't be a money-making business, but with any luck it will pay for itself and I'll be able to play around with machines and maybe pick up a few things for myself along the way.

So I'll probably be going back to HGR at some point, I make it a point to look up Bill at that time. I'll have a better idea of what kind of tooling, or accessories I might want by then too, and hopefully more money to spend.

I'll also be picking up a couple 3PH motors from HGR. One is 5 HP and the other is 7.5 HP. I'm hoping that I'll be able to make a rotary phase converter from one of these motors. Their cheap enough to experiment with. Hopefully I'll get something that's usable in the deal.

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If you are going to be in the general area, worth making an overnighter of and expanding the hunt, "pre-armed" with a list off the 'net.

"Small Tools" is a must. They are also wizard at getting great shipping rates and getting goods to me undamaged as well. Not trivial for a Herman Grade A plate of around 1200 lbs with factory stand.

Another is to keep an eye on McKean. Everything John and Dee have actually works, old maybe, junk, never. Worth a walk-through any time you are in the area.

ERC back out the HGR side I've gotten a raft of very nice motors , five of the elusive 180 V winding DC in a single trip, all new or fresh from a primo rebuild, leads not yet connected. ERC bid on or liquidate whole factories as they go dark, so catch as catch can, same as NRi as to what "treasures" they are fat with, any given year or have nearly NONE of some other year.

Keep an eye on the websites. Call them, or email. Their regular clients call and grab stuff that is advertised only briefly or never even hits an add nor ebay. Golden, further West in Ohio, told me ony ten percent is ever advertised.

I doubt you would make any "reliable" profit, "handling" HGR grabs, might not always break-even, but there MAY be interest in honest assessments of known-working machines vs the HGR dice-roll that needs an eyeballs-on visit not all hands can make easily. Might be some interest in being a "scout" for a fee and not even taking a given machine onboard under your own roof? I no lngr have a Pittsburgh base to jump off-of, so back to too long a trek from here for casual.

HGR aren't being obtuse. They genuinely do not have the bizness model to test what they acquire let alone correct deficiencies.

IIRC all I've risked from a distance, photos only, was a chuck, and it came good, so no complaints.

I seem to remember at least one member here got a machine from HGR and didnt like it and the return/exchange was very easy. I would ask them about the return policy to be sure though. If the one you get turns out to be scrap just exchange it for the other one?

Rob F. said:

I seem to remember at least one member here got a machine from HGR and didnt like it and the return/exchange was very easy. I would ask them about the return policy to be sure though. If the one you get turns out to be scrap just exchange it for the other one?

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I just got it home. It's in the driveway on the trailer. Not sure how I'm going to get it off yet. That sucker was tossing the truck around pretty good on the drive home. My trailer doesn't have shocks. I've been meaning to put some on it, I'm sure that would help.

It wasn't bad though, just enough to let you know it's back there and and ready to play havoc with you if you make a sudden turn at high speed.

Other than that the ride home was pretty nice.

It appears to be all there. Everything works as much as can be tested without turning it on. All the levers move and appear to do what they are supposed to do. Nothing appears to be jammed up in any major way. I can't really turn the head stock over with the collet. It came with a 1.5" collet in it. So at least I have one collet to play with.

It's going to be a very long time before I get this thing powered up. I grabbed right now in part because of the prices and I like this particular model. And in part because I don't want to have to pick this thing up in bad weather. So this is my late summertime toy trip. Something to play with over the winter.

Now I need to prepare a place to put it. I probably should have done that first huh?

Rob F. said:

I seem to remember at least one member here got a machine from HGR and didnt like it and the return/exchange was very easy. I would ask them about the return policy to be sure though. If the one you get turns out to be scrap just exchange it for the other one?

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And yes, they have a 30-day return policy. So I could take it back within a month if I decide to. I'll need to build a Rotary Phase Converter first and get it up and running before I can know for sure what I've got.

Yet another thing I should have done first, huh?

Sweet Dreamer said:

I'm thinking think any serious accessories are likely to cost me more than I paid for the lathe.

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If you buy from Small Tools Inc or the Ebay sellers that's true. Their target is the shop still using one that needs just one piece to do a job and can't be bothered or don't know how to scrounge. The thing to do is watch Craigslist and FB Marketplace, and machinery dealers and auctions for deals. To most folks the tooling is just old junk they want to get rid of and you can buy lots of it for cheap. the trick is to identify what will fit your machine because the majority of what I see if for larger or smaller machines for some reason, and you can haul a lot home that's useless to you without knowing it. I gradually bought just about every tool and attachment made for mine over a period of 3-5 years scrounging at a machinery dealer in south Jersey who was just one step above HGR as it came in from him cleaning out plants. It's all gone there now, no one buys it much anymore so he disposed of all that was left years ago. In fact, HGR might be a great place to find it if you keep visiting. It goes for pennies at auctions. The cheapest way is probably to buy a whole machine that is well tooled at auction and scrap the machine!

I have a couple of the big multi-tool holders for a #3 that I'd part with for $75 each but the freight to you would be 5X that,

Mud said:

The cheapest way is probably to buy a whole machine that is well tooled at auction and scrap the machine!

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That's what I'm thinking. In fact, I almost bought the #4 W&S just for the 12" 4-jaw chuck! It had a beautiful chuck on it. I wish I could have gotten that chuck with this lathe.

Mud said:

I have a couple of the big multi-tool holders for a #3 that I'd part with for $75 each but the freight to you would be 5X that,

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Yeah shipping's out of the question pretty much unless it's a really small tool.

I'm not too worried about tooling as I think I can manufacture most of the tooling I would need anyway.

Things that would be hard to make would be collets. Not impossible to make, but it would be a lot nicer to just find a bunch of collets for it. I bought a 10" 6-jaw chuck to use on this lathe, if I can make an adapter backing plate to fit. It actually only came with 3 jaws but it is a 6 jaw chuck. So it might be a fun project to make a complete set of jaws for it.

~~~~~

Getting back to my lath: I just looked inside the headstock. I didn't realize it has access caps that just lift off. Thankfully I didn't loose them on the drive home! They stayed in place because they are heavy caps. There's nothing holding them on the lathe other than gravity.

In any case I was utterly shocked when I looked inside the headstock. All the gears and moving parts that I could see looked like brand new. I was expecting to at least see some fairly worn gears. This lathe was either kept very well lubed, or it wasn't run much.

I also looked over the ways and there's no dings in them, and no obvious wear marks either. Of course this is just a superficial look, but thus far everything is looking pretty good. As far as I can see it's all there, 100% complete. That was big on my list and one reason I bought just from the photos. Some of the other lathes HGR sells this cheap are missing major parts, or handles, etc. They look like someone took all the good stuff off before they sold it to HGR. But this one appears to be 100% complete in terms of all its parts.

It may not have any tooling, but at least it has all its parts. So that's good. Well, I guess it is missing the tool post turret on the cross slide if that counts as part of the lathe. But that's not a big deal. I'll probably end up fitting it up with a Multifix too post anyway. I'll probably use it more like an engine lathe than a turret lathe anyway.

I just found a nice little treat.

I opened up the electrical box to examine the wiring. Everything looks to be in pretty good shape with no evidence of any tampering or looting. It also appears to be 100% complete.

Plus I found a nice little bonus. There's a metal pocket on the door stuffed full of the original schematics. The drawings are dated, 1953, 1958 and 1959. There's also an large envelope in there that has the original purchase order number on it along with the lathe serial number. Unfortunately, the envelope is empty and there's no actual paperwork inside. So there's no customer name or data of sale. But at least I have the schematics and I guess I can assume this machine is late 50's vintage?

I think I might have gotten a pretty nice lathe here. Still lots of investigations to do yet. But we'll get there eventually. So far it's passing inspection.

Sweet Dreamer said:

And yes, they have a 30-day return policy. So I could take it back within a month if I decide to. I'll need to build a Rotary Phase Converter first and get it up and running before I can know for sure what I've got.

Yet another thing I should have done first, huh?

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You might want to consider at least a two-stage RPC.

Start the primary idler. Add the supplementary idler. Start the W&S.

And then, if the chosen sizes are a good fit, DROP the supplementary idler off the line. Or - depending on what you are doing, any given tasking, keep the supplementary online and drop the prmary off the line.

It takes a LOT of RPC-fu to start a large motor, but not nearly as much for running the same motor, especially if you aren't really pushing the machine at all hard.

The combo can be more flexible overall than "pony startimg" one really big idler you might only load rather lightly in actual production.

4 idlers worth . but it's a testing lab here, not really a shop..