Oil pumps not working on K&T

Friar · Nov 28, 2022

We acquired a K&T No2 Universal a while back to do a dedicated task with and at first things were great, but now the oil in the column isn't circulating and the pump is sounding grumpy. The Saddle pump isn't working either and I've found various resources to get that sorted, but struggled to find anything about the column pump. Good news is, the gear train is in great shape and the current oil is clean. I drained it out of the column and didn't get any sludge with it. I didn't flush it with kerosene though, perhaps that would help? So my two questions are, is there anyway to service the pump without tearing into the whole thing? And if I do need to go that route, how do I get to the column pump? Seems like the only way to access it is to remove the gear box and go in from that side? The exploded views I've found online seem to cover every damn part except the column pump!

I know the guy I bought the machine from and he definitely takes care of his stuff. So while this thing looks a little rough, it's not neglected.

Brandenberger · Nov 28, 2022

You would get better help if you post more detail… which model? 2H? 2CH?

Pictures of the machine. Serial number, and how you know the pumps are or aren’t working, and whether the oil levels are at least at minimum level (including whether you have a clear view through sight glasses).

Friar · Nov 28, 2022

Fair enough, It's a 2HL. There's plenty of oil in the machine and the sight glass for oil level and flow is clear. I'm not sure exactly what oil the previous owner was running in it, though it feels about the right viscosity, certainly not off by enough to be the only source of the problem. I've also taken the breather off (the part with the model number opposite the gearbox) and have verified no oil is coming out of the copper tube that's over the gear box. When I drained the oil, I was thinking I could manually lube it to get through the day, but then something started making a bad noise. I shut it down in fear that it was the oil pump, but that's just a guess. The machine is running under very low load, just reaming some 1/2" bronze bushings a few thou over nominal. Hopefully that's enough info for someone to chime in with something helpful.

Brandenberger · Nov 28, 2022

Are you seeing flow across the sight glass, and oil pouring across the horizontal shafts, and does the oil level drop in the lower sight glass when the machine is running?

There’s a gear pump approximately behind the large pulley on the right hand side, with a pickup tube / strainer low down in the oil sump.

Parts manual p14 has the oil gear pump and related items (part 39 shows the cover for the gear pump)

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2098/25820.pdf

Brandenberger · Nov 28, 2022

You might find this guy’s videos on the same machine helpful (he is a member here too btw)

In this one he removes the larger pulley and clutch, exposing the assembly that has the gear motor, and he also removes the speed gearbox from the other side. I’m not saying necessarily you need to do this, just that it can show you what the innards look like better so you can localize your issue.

MyLilMule · Nov 28, 2022

I recognize that video.

I would advise against running this machine without the oil pump working. There's a lot of stuff in there that needs lubricating.

The oil pump for the 2HL is part of the feed and rapid traverse take off bracket. If you take off the big pulley, there is a panel that will expose the pump. The pump should engage and be pumping oil whenever the motor is on. It's possible that maybe the pickup is clogged or came disconnected?

I fear, though, that your problems might be more than the pump. The pump is geared to the main drive pulley. There is a helical gear on the back of the bracket that drives both the oil pump as well as the rapid traverse power takeoff. If, when the motor is running, the shaft on the LEFT side (inside the big door) is NOT running, then your rapid traverse feeds would also not be running, then your oil pump is also not running. It could be the clutch in that mechanism - see Keith Rucker's YouTube channel where he does a repair on the rapid traverse. You'll have to drain the oil, but you won't have to remove the transmission.

Hope some of this helps.

johnoder · Nov 28, 2022

Brandenberger said:
You might find this guy’s videos on the same machine helpful (he is a member here too btw)

In this one he removes the larger pulley and clutch, exposing the assembly that has the gear motor, and he also removes the speed gearbox from the other side. I’m not saying necessarily you need to do this, just that it can show you what the innards look like better so you can localize your issue.

2HL parts book

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2098/25820.pdf

Friar · Nov 28, 2022

MyLilMule said:
I recognize that video.

I would advise against running this machine without the oil pump working. There's a lot of stuff in there that needs lubricating.

The oil pump for the 2HL is part of the feed and rapid traverse take off bracket. If you take off the big pulley, there is a panel that will expose the pump. The pump should engage and be pumping oil whenever the motor is on. It's possible that maybe the pickup is clogged or came disconnected?

I fear, though, that your problems might be more than the pump. The pump is geared to the main drive pulley. There is a helical gear on the back of the bracket that drives both the oil pump as well as the rapid traverse power takeoff. If, when the motor is running, the shaft on the LEFT side (inside the big door) is NOT running, then your rapid traverse feeds would also not be running, then your oil pump is also not running. It could be the clutch in that mechanism - see Keith Rucker's YouTube channel where he does a repair on the rapid traverse. You'll have to drain the oil, but you won't have to remove the transmission.

Hope some of this helps.

The left shaft inside the big door is spinning and the rapid feeds work when I pull that lever up. The power feed does not work, I was under the impression that was related to the saddle pump not working. My theory, not knowing a ton about these old K&T machines is that when the oil stopped flowing it starved the pump, which got warm and starting making noise. That's when I tried unsuccessfully to manually lube it and figured it was time to ask the internet. I'm with you, don't want to run it dry for any length of time.

Brandenberger said:
Are you seeing flow across the sight glass, and oil pouring across the horizontal shafts, and does the oil level drop in the lower sight glass when the machine is running?

There’s a gear pump approximately behind the large pulley on the right hand side, with a pickup tube / strainer low down in the oil sump.

Parts manual p14 has the oil gear pump and related items (part 39 shows the cover for the gear pump)

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2098/25820.pdf

There is no evidence of any oil flow anywhere. Looks like I'll pull the big pulley and get to the the pump, hopefully it's just a clogged intake. That would make sense as I'm pretty sure it was working when I first started using it, then stopped shortly there after. The machine had been sitting idle for almost a year before I put it back into service. So a clog doesn't seem out of question.

Mikalius · Nov 28, 2022

Can I propose the Occam's razor solution?

I have a 2H and I believe the oil pump mentioned above is dependent upon the correct rotational direction of the motor and main pulley (the pulley has a directional arrow stamped on it).

Friar, have you checked the motor rotation is correct?

Friar · Nov 28, 2022

Mikalius said:
Can I propose the Occam's razor solution?

I have a 2H and I believe the oil pump mentioned above is dependent upon the correct rotational direction of the motor and main pulley (the pulley has a directional arrow stamped on it).

Friar, have you checked the motor rotation is correct?

Interesting. When we wired it, I made sure that when the spindle reverse lever on the gearbox was in that we got a clockwise rotation and didn't think about phasing the motor after that was correct. But the big pulley is not turning in the same direction as the arrow indicates. That doesn't make any sense though, how can the spindle turn clockwise while that pulley is going backwards. I'll reverse the polarity on the machine tomorrow and see how that goes.

This place is awesome by the way, thanks for all the help!

MyLilMule · Nov 28, 2022

Mikalius said:
Can I propose the Occam's razor solution?

I have a 2H and I believe the oil pump mentioned above is dependent upon the correct rotational direction of the motor and main pulley (the pulley has a directional arrow stamped on it).

Friar, have you checked the motor rotation is correct?

I think you get the prize for easiest diagnosis method.

Friar said:
Interesting. When we wired it, I made sure that when the spindle reverse lever on the gearbox was in that we got a clockwise rotation and didn't think about phasing the motor after that was correct. But the big pulley is not turning in the same direction as the arrow indicates. That doesn't make any sense though, how can the spindle turn clockwise while that pulley is going backwards. I'll reverse the polarity on the machine tomorrow and see how that goes.

This place is awesome by the way, thanks for all the help!

If that pulley is spinning the wrong way, the pump won't work.

The spindle should rotate COUNTER CLOCKWISE as you are looking straight at it. You can damage stuff if it's not. Hopefully, you didn't do any damage to the machine. They are pretty beefy.

The Spindle Reverse is engaged when it is pushed IN, not OUT on mine. And the power feeds do NOT reverse.

MyLilMule · Nov 28, 2022

Here's a short video I just took. Hopefully, this helps.

MyLilMule · Nov 28, 2022

Not sure how old your machine is (mine is 1942). Here is the parts book and the operators manual.

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2098/25820.pdf

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2098/6526.pdf

You can also get the manufacture month/year by looking up the serial number in the lot book:

Kearney Trecker serial number PFD [ direct link.]

Here is a link to Kearney Trecker serial numbers. I know its in publication reprints but now its also here. I think there is an earlier list also. Please post a link. Kearney & Trecker Co. - Publication Reprints - SERIAL NUMBER REFERENCE - Lot 8526 on | VintageMachinery.org Kearney & Trecker...

www.practicalmachinist.com

And just FYI, you probably already know this, but the number on the machine is deciphered as "NN-LLLL" where "LLLL" is the lot number and "NN" the the nth machine in the lot. Mine is "1-3173". So if I look up lot 3173, there were 50 machines in that lot, manufactured in January of 1942. Mine was the first of the lot completed.

Friar · Nov 28, 2022

MyLilMule said:
Here's a short video I just took. Hopefully, this helps.

I was thinking of looking down the spindle. But the video cleared it up, reverse lever IN, right hand cutter cuts. Which apparently is backwards. Seems odd, would think the reverse knob being out would put the spindle into reverse, not the other way around. So I didn't think twice about it being phased correctly. I'll swap the wires tomorrow and report back.

Friar · Nov 29, 2022

I swapped the polarity on the machine this morning and everything magically works. Which is awesome because I really didn't want to burn a weekend or two tearing into this thing. Thanks for the help everyone!

Mikalius · Nov 29, 2022

MyLilMule said:
I think you get the prize for easiest diagnosis method.

Like they say, sometimes the blind squirrel still finds an acorn. Sadly, I've been bitten by the obvious being overlooked too many times to count, so I'm kind of an expert!

G-ManBart · Nov 30, 2022

Friar said:
I was thinking of looking down the spindle. But the video cleared it up, reverse lever IN, right hand cutter cuts. Which apparently is backwards. Seems odd, would think the reverse knob being out would put the spindle into reverse, not the other way around. So I didn't think twice about it being phased correctly. I'll swap the wires tomorrow and report back.

Don't feel bad. I just brought home a K&T 2H Plain and was all sorts of confused why it was turning in reverse when the lever was in. I watched a video and realized it was the opposite of what made sense...then I think I looked it up in the manual as well.

Glad to hear your fix was an easy one!

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