K&T 2D Rotary 11-5256 -- my new toy.

W_Higgins · May 13, 2019

I've wanted one of these for the longest time and the right combination of price, location, and condition (somewhat of a gamble on that topic) came along. It was an "online only" auction for which I received the notice too late to attend the preview and it was a bit of a hike just to go look with no more detail than they provided. As the days went on I got a little more information from the auctioneer and made some educated guesses about things, enough to talk myself out of not bidding. It wasn't under power and assumed to have no accessories, so I bid accordingly.... and got it.

Picked it up today. Couldn't have been worse weather for the task unless it were below freezing. Over three hours across the mountains in the rain. There were some hurdles getting it out of the building since the little forklift they had on site was about 1,500 lbs. short of what was needed to move it. After clearing an alternate path we were able to slide it across the floor. Once outside their big Volvo loader more than made up for the shortcomings of their forklift and the equipment operator could have picked a booger out of a giraffe's nose with it.

After a long day it is home and in the shop. Needs a good bit of cleaning but nothing scary so far. The story on the shop was it closed up a few years ago and the owner sold the property to the local township and abandoned the machines. Nothing really seems to be bent, broken, or missing. Unfortunately, it is 440v, so no playing tonight. No accessories unique to a 2D were found in the building except a second set of collets that were sold with a round-ram Bridgeport that the buyer may sell to me after he sorts through his stuff. A 16" K&T rotab was sold with a Cincinnati mill which is a shame as it is only several lot numbers and one month behind the 2D and I assume had always lived with it. If they ever had other accessories for the 2D, they were cherry picked before the shop owners sold the property.

Attached are some photos. I'm curious to hear thoughts on the appearance of the ways. I don't know from looking if that's a factory job or if it has been rescraped. It is pretty consistent side-to-side. Backlash is 0.035 on X and 0.010 on Y.

W_Higgins · May 13, 2019

Second batch of photos. Sorry for the rotation. I just can't seem to get that right.

The electrical cabinet looks pretty pure. The dealer tag on the column would indicate it has some miles on it as I purchased the machine in central Pennsylvania.

ramsay1 · May 14, 2019

Hello: Glad to see you made it home ok.. Your machine is #11 in a lot of 20 made Feb '46 according to the book I sent to Vintage Machinery.org...Looks like you have the B-3 spindle as mine once was before it was opened up to R-8....I saw the fuses so I figured it is a 440 volt unit.... ........ Looks like you are going to need a dry transformer to step up your voltage before you can run.. My machine was a 440 unit originally but someone changed all five motors to single phase motors so they could run it on house current....Cheers; Ramsay 1

johnoder · May 14, 2019

Post #2, Photo #3 is the amazing contraption hopelessly wore out on my January 1969 2D I used to have serial 58-1001- 11. I have to assume the POs just ran it and did not ever look in the top - never mind oiling it - the prevailing attitude for machines without draw bars. "Look in there? Who, ME?"

Now if most of its life is ORBITING, the "contraption" is going to suffer accordingly

I switched that one from 440 but it was no fun - like - having to build tooling just to get the spindle motor OUT to access "pecker head"

At least by that late date they had made the electrical enclosure at least twice as big and on the back in the usual box form

W_Higgins · May 14, 2019

I want to thank Mike and John for all the help they provided, both online and off, leading up to retrieving it yesterday. It made things much easier for me.

Attached is a photo of the contents of the cabinet. I knew I had seen that scale somewhere before and last night it occurred to me it's for the pointer for the spindle speed, but I haven't yet figured out how it attaches. Figuring that shaft goes with it. Those other pieces are trip dogs, aren't they? I'm not sure about the shift fork or if it even goes to this machine.

I woke up kicking myself for not asking if there was a filing cabinet I could rifle through to see if they had any paperwork on it, but will contact them this morning and see if they will entertain my request.

Any suggestion on the size of transformer that I need to hunt down? I saw where someone else in the same situation on a 2D used one that was 3 KVA.

ramsay1 · May 14, 2019

You are most welcome.. Glad to be of help to you... I have owned my 2d for over 20 years.. Contents in the last pic are trip dogs for the periphery of rotary head,(I had to make mine and have the authentic K&T drawing for them), trip dogs for one of the rotabs,either 12 or 16 inch, I don't know which, the speed scale for the spindle drive, the fork is probably for one of the rotary tables....I think the 12 inch rotab shares the rotary head hand wheel and also the dividing hole plates and sector for the rotary head....The other item looks suspiciously like the clutch knob for the rotab drive which you are lacking, just a guess..My machine has the exact same setup for speed indicator , here is a pic.... Just curious, have you tried a collet in the spindle yet? Originally it should have been B-3.. Ramsay 1

johnoder · May 14, 2019

Any suggestion on the size of transformer that I need to hunt down?

Acme suggested 3 KVA three phase general purpose dry type for my 1 1/2 HP four speed on the Jig Bore - and they had no problem about using it as a step up by wiring it "backwards". Functioning now without issue for 16 years

W_Higgins · May 14, 2019

I just figured out the fork. It is the declutching fork for the Rotary Head Hand Wheel. Seems like a peculiar thing to replace.

Thanks for that photo showing the Speed Indicator installed. Earlier I figured out that shaft goes in from the bottom of it and the little dowel pins locate in the sliding plate. I didn't know what was missing from the top and now see from yours it is a cam lever and I feel like I picked up something like that when there. If it was with my machine, it is with my stuff, but I haven't run across it yet when unpacking. So, that speed indicator doubles as a clamp for the belt tensioner? Seems like an essential thing to have in place. There's a cross-drilled hole in the big end of that shaft like maybe a screw passes through it. I don't think it's going to be easy to reinstall and wonder why they took it out.

I grabbed one of the B3's off the Bridgeport while there and tried it and that does seem to be the size. Later I found this little guy rolling around inside the cabinet (shown next to a 5C for scale). Appears to be homemade. Do the factory B3's have "K&T" stamped on them? If that guy will sort through what he bought, it would be nice if I could get back the actual ones for the machine.

I'm missing the indicator holder for X that mounts on the left side of the scale. I'm sure there are a couple of other trinkets missing, as well. If somebody happens to be parting out a 2D it would be nice to get the correct little pieces from them.

Also, I still don't quite understand how to get the quill to feed manually and need to reread the Operator's Manual again.

Thanks also for the input on the transformer. I will be on the hunt.

johnoder · May 14, 2019

Also, I still don't quite understand how to get the quill to feed manually and need to reread the Operator's Manual again.

Notched ring nut has to be loose - its the quill binder

W_Higgins · May 14, 2019

Found it! Somehow it made its way back inside the cabinet and it was so black in there that I didn't see it.

W_Higgins · May 14, 2019

johnoder said:
Notched ring nut has to be loose - its the quill binder

Is that what they refer to as the "57. Clutch Nut"?:

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2098/6554.pdf

I loosened that earlier and it allowed the crank to turn both directions but it feels like a clutch slipping and there is no quill movement.

ramsay1 · May 14, 2019

W_Higgins said:
Is that what they refer to as the "57. Clutch Nut"?:

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2098/6554.pdf

I loosened that earlier and it allowed the crank to turn both directions but it feels like a clutch slipping and there is no quill movement.

The lock nut on the side of the housing is loose.. It has to be loosened to use the cherrying attachment... 57 tight 53 loose to use manual or power spindle feedRamsay 1

W_Higgins · May 14, 2019

Okay, I'm dense. I didn't realize what John was referring to and missed that in the manual. The head is coated in a nice consistent film of oil that has turned to varnish and things are stiff. I have removed 53 ad the crank still slips when turning clockwise (up) and is very stiff counter-clockwise but it will move the quill down.

m-lud · May 14, 2019

W_Higgins said:
I've wanted one of these for the longest time and the right combination of price, location, and condition (somewhat of a gamble on that topic) came along. It was an "online only" auction for which I received the notice too late to attend the preview and it was a bit of a hike just to go look with no more detail than they provided. As the days went on I got a little more information from the auctioneer and made some educated guesses about things, enough to talk myself out of not bidding. It wasn't under power and assumed to have no accessories, so I bid accordingly.... and got it.

Picked it up today. Couldn't have been worse weather for the task unless it were below freezing. Over three hours across the mountains in the rain. There were some hurdles getting it out of the building since the little forklift they had on site was about 1,500 lbs. short of what was needed to move it. After clearing an alternate path we were able to slide it across the floor. Once outside their big Volvo loader more than made up for the shortcomings of their forklift and the equipment operator could have picked a booger out of a giraffe's nose with it.

After a long day it is home and in the shop. Needs a good bit of cleaning but nothing scary so far. The story on the shop was it closed up a few years ago and the owner sold the property to the local township and abandoned the machines. Nothing really seems to be bent, broken, or missing. Unfortunately, it is 440v, so no playing tonight. No accessories unique to a 2D were found in the building except a second set of collets that were sold with a round-ram Bridgeport that the buyer may sell to me after he sorts through his stuff. A 16" K&T rotab was sold with a Cincinnati mill which is a shame as it is only several lot numbers and one month behind the 2D and I assume had always lived with it. If they ever had other accessories for the 2D, they were cherry picked before the shop owners sold the property.

Attached are some photos. I'm curious to hear thoughts on the appearance of the ways. I don't know from looking if that's a factory job or if it has been rescraped. It is pretty consistent side-to-side. Backlash is 0.035 on X and 0.010 on Y.

View attachment 256392 View attachment 256393 View attachment 256394 View attachment 256396 View attachment 256397

It would be great if you could get the guy that bought the Bridgeport to sell you the collet set. If your set is complete you may not need them but they are scarce .

W_Higgins · May 14, 2019

mllud22 said:
It would be great if you could get the guy that bought the Bridgeport to sell you the collet set. If your set is complete you may not need them but they are scarce .

I didn't word my post well. The set that belonged to this machine was sold with the Bridgeport, so he has two sets and I have none.

ramsay1 · May 14, 2019

W_Higgins said:
I didn't word my post well. The set that belonged to this machine was sold with the Bridgeport, so he has two sets and I have none.

If the Bridgeport has R8 spindle he will not need the b3 collets.. Maybe you can get the rest of them from him.. Just a thought.. Ramsay 1

m-lud · May 14, 2019

That's what happens when the people getting the sale set up have zero knowledge of what goes with each machine. It happens all the time.

W_Higgins · May 14, 2019

That round-ram Bridgeport isn't the common head that uses R8. Unfortunately, it also uses B3, so he needs a set, too.

Even if I had found that out by attending the auction preview, it would have been too late for them to include them in the sale as everything pictured on the machines went with them. Same with the rotab that was on the other mill. The auction people and the sellers readily admitted they didn't know anything about what they had.

ramsay1 · May 14, 2019

W_Higgins said:
That round-ram Bridgeport isn't the common head that uses R8. Unfortunately, it also uses B3, so he needs a set, too.

Even if I had found that out by attending the auction preview, it would have been too late for them to include them in the sale as everything pictured on the machines went with them. Same with the rotab that was on the other mill. The auction people and the sellers readily admitted they didn't know anything about what they had.

I was involved for years with surplus gov't machinery.. I have seen radial drills with Kearney and Trecker vertical heads next to them in the yard and Kearney and Trecker mills with universal drill tables next to them... I suspect that when I got my 2hl universal at gov't auction and it was minus all the attachments that were sold to the Navy originally, my purchase was a victim as I know what was bought by the Navy originally.. Ramsay 1

PaulO_UK · May 15, 2019

Congratulations on joining the club. I bought mine about 18 months ago. I can’t see me ever selling it.

K&T 2D Rotary 11-5256 -- my new toy.

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