Graziano Sag 180 Brochure and other Literature

I was recently the underbidder on a Sag 180 brochure, but the winner was kind enough to send me scans.

Thanks Geoff!

If you would like a higher resolution copy, send me a PM or e-mail including your e-mail address.

A few more

From what I understand, the Sag 180 was the predecessor of the Sag 14. This is explained in the attached letter sent from the factory to Graziano dealers, date unknown.

The letter outlines the differences/improvements made between the Sag 180 and Sag 14.

It seems the Sag 180 was available with either plain or roller bearing spindle. I am not sure if this was an option or a modification made during production.

I can't recall who first posted this letter on PM, but thanks!

Peter,

Thanks for posting that letter and for sending me the brochure. One thing that has always puzzled me is that it seems that Graziano was reluctant to put a date on any of their documentation. It really makes it difficult to date their machinery.

Ted

Peter S said:

It seems the Sag 180 was available with either plain or roller bearing spindle. I am not sure if this was an option or a modification made during production.

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Having now read the Sag 180 brochure I posted , I see the plain bearing was the standard fitment and the taper roller bearings were an option. BTW, the plain bearing type actually used a roller bearing at the drive end and plain bearing at the chuck end.

Thanks for posting that Peter, I have a plain bearing SAG 180 and I posted a copy of that letter originally.

Personal message sent, Peter.

Peter S said:

I was recently the underbidder on a Sag 180 brochure, but the winner was kind enough to send me scans.

Thanks Geoff!

If you would like a higher resolution copy, send me a PM or e-mail including your e-mail address.



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Peter S said:

I was recently the underbidder on a Sag 180 brochure, but the winner was kind enough to send me scans.

Thanks Geoff!

If you would like a higher resolution copy, send me a PM or e-mail including your e-mail address.



View attachment 296768 View attachment 296769 View attachment 296770 View attachment 296771 View attachment 296772

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HI Peter S.

I am coming in late and not directly aligned with original post but related.

I have a Sag 180. I am fortunate that it came with a full set of change gears. Unfortunately the manual has been lost. My query is does: the manual in which you used to verify the original query contain a guide as how to use the numerous change gears to obtain thread pitches outside the normal range displayed on the machine data plate? I am always reluctant to buy a manual on the internet without the knowledge that contain the information that I require. Regards FF

Not he - other graziano manuals have the pitches catered to with the change gears, I doubt the 180 is an exception ...... https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...-many-real-many-manuals-also-englisch.231022/

Frank,

Good to hear from another Graziano owner .

Regarding a manual, I have a pdf copy, in foreign languages, of a 21 page SAG 180 manual. It can be downloaded free at https://passion-usinages.forumgratuit.org/f32-tours-lathes. You will need to register first. The page below is from that manual. It refers to a "later" model SAG 180.

Note: there are early and late variations of the SAG 180 feeds/screw cutting gearbox. The lathe in the brochure photos (above) is an early version.

The early ones only have A-B-C on the left hand-most selector. Later versions have A-B-C-D (as does the SAG 14).

The early ones only have 6 positions on the central rotating selector. Later versions have 10 positions, (as does the SAG 14).

The early ones had 1/2" pitch leadscrew, later versions had 3/8" pitch.

So, the first thing to check is if your lathe is the early or later type. If the later type, I can post several pages showing the SAG 14 "special threads" pages.

It would be interesting to know what your serial number is, it should be stamped on the side face of the bed way, down at the tailstock end of the lathe.

The attached images show:
-1 page (+ cover) from a SAG 180 manual showing the 'later' type, with ABCD selector, 10 position central selector, 3/8" pitch leadscrew.
-2 photos from an early SAG 180 (I think from SAG 180 who posted earlier in this thread) showing ABC selector, 6 position central selector, 1/2" pitch leadscrew.

Here are some pages from a SAG 14 manual.

Hi Peter S

My machine is somewhat caught between the old and the new SAG180.

It has:

1. It has an early ABC type left hand selector;
2. 6 position rotating selector; and
3. 3/8" lead screw pitch.

The serial number of the lathe is 180N1457

The 3/8 lead screw pitch is the common element.

I need to see what gears are used to cut a 12 TPI on a ABC machine and what gears are used in a ABCD machine. If they are the same gears then I can work out what is available on an ABC machine (albeit there with be less.)

Thank you for your assistance, I have some thinking to do.

Regards FF

Factory Frank said:

I need to see what gears are used to cut a 12 TPI on a ABC machine and what gears are used in a ABCD machine.

Click to expand...

FF, thanks for the serial number and the interesting "between models" info. Over the years I have recorded a few serial numbers and differing features in the hope of building up some sort of time line. Dates for the various models are scarce!

Regarding the gearing for 12 TPI - both the 'early' SAG 180 chart and the SAG 14 charts show the same change gears, i.e. 20T on the lathe spindle and 80T on the feedbox input shaft.

The SAG 14 chart shows a 40T idler gear between the 20T and 80T, but the idler has no effect on the overall ratio, it could be any number of teeth, whatever spans the gap.

The lever positions are different however:

-SAG180 'early' model (ABC, 6 position, 1/2" pitch leadscrew): W B 6
-SAG 14 (ABCD, 10 position, 3/8" pitch leadscrew): W B 1

Try them out and see what happens?

BTW, I guess the chart on your lathe is damaged? Plenty of them are, including my SAG 14, the results of the chuck key and air gun hanging on the levers over many years (not me!)

Peter S,

Your comment about in-between models caught my eye. I have a Graziano lathe where the base under the tail stock says "SAG 180", the change gears chart says "SAG 17" and sports a D1-6 spindle nose (this was used on the SAG 17/210). There is a serial number on the compound that starts as 180Nxxxx (I don't have it in front of me, I'll post it later). Was there anywhere else that the serial number is posted on these machines?

So, add this information to your growing collection of facts on these Italian beauties!

Hi marcbark,

Good to hear from another Graziano owner. Your lathe has an interesting combination of features!

Especially the D1-6 spindle nose. Does the lathe have the swing of a SAG17 by any chance?

The brochures specs are:
The "swing over bed" for SAG180 & SAG14 is 14 1/4", for SAG17 is 16 5/16".
The "swing over gap" for SAG180 & SAG14 is 19 1/2" for SAG17 is 22 3/8".
The "swing over cross slide" for SAG180 & SAG 14 is 8 5/8" and for SAG17 is 11 7/16".

Regarding the serial number location, I can only show you where they are found on the SAG 14.

It's not clear in the photos, but the serial number on this SAG14 is SAG14N5722, which I take to mean "serial number 5722".

PM member 'Lofty' has a SAG180 with "180N4176".

Would be great to see photos of your lathe if that is possible, thanks.

I stepped out and took some photos of my machine. I found the same serial number, 180N4515, on the end of the bed as was found on the compound.

One thing mine has that I've not seen on others is the threading dial (others have them, but quite different than mine).

It does have the swing of a SAG 17. As far as I can tell, the SAG 180/14 and the SAG 210/17 are identical, except for the headstock and the tailstock. This could explain why the base on mine calls out a SAG180.

Thanks for the photos and serial number.

Very interesting that it has the SAG17 (210) swing!

I have never seen or heard of a SAG 210 from the era of the SAG 180. It is not mentioned in the SAG 180 brochure above.

I only know of the much later model SAG 210 which has space-age sheetmetal and electromagnetic clutch-type transmission in the base (like the SAG 12).

The Graziano letter in post #3 explains that the SAG 14 superceded the SAG 180. The SAG 17 is basically the SAG 14 with raised base casting* underneath the headstock, thicker tailstock base and compound slide base. Also a D1-6" chuck mount and 6hp motor. Maybe a larger spindle bore.

As you say, you seem to have a SAG 17 headstock end but with SAG 180 for the rest of the lathe. But presumably with the thicker tailstock base and compound slide base.

Why does it have 'SAG 180' instead of SAG 210 or SAG 17? Is it possible that Graziano hadn't offered or made a 210 before this time (FWIW, I've never seen one but they might be out there). The SAG 14/17 was being developed to replace the SAG 180, so perhaps your lathe was built during the model change-over and has a new-type headstock but old-type bed, carriage etc.

The headstock on your lathe has the SAG 14/17 type spindle speed selector wheel which I have never seen on SAG 180 lathes. The SAG 14/17 wheel is plastic with a window and red marker to show which speed has been selected.

Your threading dial looks the same as the SAG 14/17 and some 180's I have seen.

Would you mind taking a photo of the apron/carriage/saddle please? The small bit you have shown looks a little different to both 180 and 14 types.

* I think the SAG 14 & 17 have the same headstock casting. The base casting below the headstock appears to be raised on its top edge for the SAG 17.

Those are some incredible observations. When I purchased the lathe, I understood it was a SAG180, and so purchased a D1-5 backplate for my 12" set-tru chuck. That was my first indication that something was different here!

I've attached some more photos of the saddle and apron. Hopefully, these serve to better identify what is going on here. I've also included a picture of the taper attachment.