Making chuck backplates for Cazeneuve HBY 590

I just got a HBY 590. One of the common issues discussed is the proprietary Cazeneuve spindle nose. A camlock spinde nose was an available option, but my machine has the Caz nose.

Hopefully this thread will finally arrive at a complete backplate but be warned it will take a while to get there. I'm starting now to help myself keep track of the stuff I learn and in so doing provide a reference for others.

Here is the rational for the nose from Mssr. Maurel, copied from the French site Usinages. I do not speak or read French but Usinages simply means Machining.

"The so-called "Cazeneuve" spindle nose appeared in 1949. Its design is based on a simple principle which ensures its high precision, to the detriment of some machining difficulties.

The front face of the spindle is flat and ground.
The external cone (about 7° from memory, but to be checked) is of large diameter.
A false plate is needed to adapt the chucks using the standardized centering provided on them.

How it works:
Centering is provided by the outer cone.
The three set screws are used to ensure the installation of the plate. as it is a cone there is a slight deformation of the metal and a pinching, which will ensure the training and the transmission of the power, without any effort on the screws.
To avoid bad centering it is useful that the flat surfaces just come into contact.
In a single operation we ensure the training and the centering by the cone, the cone being external and of large diameter, it allows to ensure important spindle passages, unlike the iso - camlock -classic nose (cone of small diameter - less precise and driving effort ensured by the fixing screws, hence constraints on the spindle

. training is effective. _________________ Jamawi"

This is the graphic that accompanies the above description. For some reason it didn't copy with the text.

I'll post a link to this entire Usinages thread next. I'm right in the middle of reading it and I'm afraid I'll loose my place if i do it now.

Here is the link to the thread mentioned above. When the thread opens i was given a language option. I chose english.


A few things about the translation. In French lathe is tour and also tower I believe. So in the English translation you'll also see tour and tower. Some more funny things:

• Bench is bedway or bed.
• Doll has something to do with tailstock. It might be the quill or the whole tailstock.
• Contre pointe is tailstock.
• You'll see the term MO frequently, always capitalized. Maybe a French speaking member can tell us what that is.

I'll mention more quirks if I see them.

If you are looking for Cazeneuve history you will find the thread interesting. It does diverge toward the end into discussion of loss of skilled labor and the tendency of schools (and parents) to look down their nose at skilled labor, or as the French say, technicians. And we have the same issue here. In '72 I actually had an eighth grade teacher that told us if we didn't go to college we would be failures.

I was struck by the lack of animosity in this thread, even the more political ideas. But the last post is 2016 and we all got along better then. And considering the topic, this Usinages thread might not engender the rude responses and pointless arguments we see on PM. We are likely of one mind with regard to topics in this thread.

Back to the real point of this thread. The spindle nose taper is addressed in post #100. A 5% included taper is named for the 590. Not sure how authoritative this is but it does give a starting point. It's interesting to note Mr. Maurel is pointedly asked for the spindle nose particulars. He skirts the issue just like a politician would.

More to come.

One more confusing French word. Bezel is steady rest.

Today I took the 12" 3 jaw chuck off to reveal the much reviled Cazeneuve spindle nose.

It's long, Isn't it? And the taper is so slow it almost looks straight. My hand is in the way or you would see one of the tapered holes that receive the conical fixing screws. Offhand I think the screws are M14. I was a little concerned about this setup being kind of weak but after removing the chuck I'm not anymore. The screws really pull the thing onto the taper. It was tough to remove the chuck. More so because I didn't want to damage anything. The other fixing method is 4 bolt holes in the face of the spindle. The 20" chuck, 10" chuck, and 500mm faceplate that came with the lathe use the 4 bolts.

All the tapers are integral with the chucks so none of these actually has a backplate. I don't this setup is going to be very much slower to change over than camlock. The lack of camlock posts coming out the back of the chuck is nice because there is no chance of nicking the taper with the posts.

When I get the time I'll put the chuck up on the surface plate and check the taper and the other pertinent dimensions. It will be interesting to see if it is indeed 5 degrees.

Greg

Its interesting, I have a latish HB575 here and the taper looks significantly larger in diameter, its about 10" with a 2 1/4" bore. Does the HB590 have the tailstock morse taper offset and grub screws for alignment?

rblalexander said:

Its interesting, I have a latish HB575 here and the taper looks significantly larger in diameter, its about 10" with a 2 1/4" bore. Does the HB590 have the tailstock morse taper offset and grub screws for alignment?

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Wow that is a huge taper!

The 590HBY spindle nose is about 6.2" diameter and the spindle through hole is about 2.4".

The aluminum ring is about 10" diameter. It retains a seal I believe.


The #5 MT tailstock is solid without the typical split for taper adjustment. Maybe you are familiar with this but for those that aren't...

The round keyway engages a rounded key. With an allen key you can shift the key front to back thus rotating the tailstock ram and moving centerline slightly. Seems crazy because the center also moves up and down but the vertical movement is so small it is insignificant. The Cazeneuve philosophy is tapers should be cut with a taper attachment or tracer, not by offsetting the tailstock. Thus only a small amount of movement is needed to remove taper.

Another tailstock difference is the lack of a slot to accept the tang on the end of MT holders that prevents rotation. I'm going on bad pictures and descriptions here but the best I can tell rotation on this lathe is prevented by a pin through a flange on the front of the taper socket. The pin engages the round keyway. To extract the taper you bring the ram back all the way and the pin hits the seal retainer to knock the taper out. I've got the seal retainer removed but you can see the holes to which it bolts.

Here is the retainer.

You can see the witness mark where the pin has hit the ring.

Just another thing to be sussed out and made. Or maybe modified from existing taper shanks and sockets.

Greg

Oh that is interesting. My 575 has no tang drive but I've never had anything spin and everything ejects fine. Even live centers with no tang. Interesting the leadscrew is a small diameter. This is 40 odd mm

rblalexander said:

Oh that is interesting. My 575 has no tang drive but I've never had anything spin and everything ejects fine. Even live centers with no tang. Interesting the leadscrew is a small diameter. This is 40 odd mm

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RB it is crazy unheard of, right? I am guessing the HB575 ejects MT's in the normal way?

I wish I had a handful of taper sleeves but I have none. I might very well never spin anything but the tailstock taper is pristine and I want to keep it that way. When I make the taper sleeves I'll start a thread for that, since they will be different from anything else out there.

I did run across the reason for the M25 leadscrew on the French forum Usinages, although I didn't save the thread. The engineers at Cazeneuve determined a bigger diameter leadscrew had too much inertia for the way the Caz thread pickup mechanism works.

Greg

Hi Greg, you are right 'doll' in the translation IS the tailstock. They were once called 'poppets' in English. French for 'doll' is 'poupee' (can't be bothered finding the acute accent for the first 'e'). You can see the similarity in the words & an old time translator(either way) may have coined the term. Many thanks by the way for the usinages link .. priceless!

swarfless said:

Hi Greg, you are right 'doll' in the translation IS the tailstock. They were once called 'poppets' in English. French for 'doll' is 'poupee' (can't be bothered finding the acute accent for the first 'e'). You can see the similarity in the words & an old time translator(either way) may have coined the term. Many thanks by the way for the usinages link .. priceless!

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Thanks for that swarfless. Maybe you know this one. Bacon? Or it showed up once as lardon. I suspect this is a google problem word. From context i think it means gib. Kind of makes sense because a lardon is a prismatic piece of bacon, sometimes used for larding or stuffing into meat, and a gib is prismatic and stuffed into a dovetail joint.

I am compiling a glossary, or at least I intend to, of this stuff. As for the accent marks I've noticed the French like to pepper them in liberally, whereas we hardly use them at all. Or do we use them ever?

guythatbrews said:

One more confusing French word. Bezel is steady rest.

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So i inquired of usinages members what is the correct term for steady rest and follower rest.
Steady rest is lunettes fixe.
Follower rest is lunettes suivre.
Google translates these bits as glasses fixed and glasses moving.

Google breaks down when each language uses the same spelling for different meanings. There must be a way to isolate specific words or phrases in a text from translation but I haven't found it yet. For the steady and followee rests i posted pictures and asked for the French names.

I am going on faith that google is doing a fair job of putting my words into French. It makes me think of the Monty Python bit where John Cleese, playing a foreigner with a phrasebook, asks a clerk "Please feel my buttocks." Pretty sure that was a bad translation!

Ah Greg, I reckon the fella that could help you out with translation would be tnb or is it TNB (?) who hangs out on the Deckel forum. Perhaps a PM to him?

guythatbrews said:

Thanks for that swarfless. Maybe you know this one. Bacon? Or it showed up once as lardon. I suspect this is a google problem word. From context i think it means gib. Kind of makes sense because a lardon is a prismatic piece of bacon, sometimes used for larding or stuffing into meat, and a gib is prismatic and stuffed into a dovetail joint.

Click to expand...

That’s hilarious, better than cheese wedge I suppose….