Retrofit of my 1978 Deckel E3 (basically one of the first NC FP3's)

Hello everybody,

I'm Markus, 49 yrs and from Germany.

Some weeks ago I had the Idea to replace my small china mill - an CNC controlled 'Optimum BF' 20 with something bigger - preferably a Deckel FP.

I have had the short chance to practice on a FP2 some 30 years ago - so my wish to own one accompanied me half my life.
But - as everyone here knows - those machines usually are far from affordable. At least for me.

Incidentally several days later I stumbled upon an electrically defect FP on Ebay at a price I just couldnt say no. Exact type was not mentioned, I did a quick research on the net and hit' the 'buy it now' button.

So I ended up with this 1.5 ton piece - 300 miles from my home:





First I thought it was an FP4 - but I learned I had picked a rare 'E3' with 'E1003' Weinlich control from 1978.
So I - Deckel rookie and blindest of blind hens - have been so lucky to pick a machine with stepper motors and ballscrews on all three axles. Sigh.

Last week I picked it up on a rented 3to car trailer:








I unloaded it mith my pallet truck (not without denting the trailer - sigh :-( ), but nevertheless the mill ended up in my garage.


Here a picture of the stepper motors with encoders (at least I guess so):





Vogel lube pump:





Nixies were state of the art back then :-) :





70s style control:








inside - capacitors sized like beercans:





160V transformer (power supply for the steppers) weighs at least 80 pounds :-) :





the giant stepper amplifiers:





cards, cards, cards... imagine my rolling eyes when I saw this first time.





there are virtually inches of space between the conducting paths. Let the good ol' times roll...:





On the left hand side the Vogel lube timer - only thing I'd miss when the cabinet will be gone:








see the tube type socket ? Tubes weren't long gone by then.





huge Resistors:

And the big picture plan? What now.....
Cheers Ross

Amazingly clean inside the electronic box to be so old. I once owned a 1964 NC Burgmater with Hughes control that had actual vacuum tubes.

I would ask what Ross asked but I'm afraid of the answer

There are so few machine of that age around with there original controllers.You should troubleshoot and fix what you have rather than get rid of the electronics and start over. You hear about people starting out to retrofit something like that and it gets torn apart and that's as far as it goes.

As an aside the NIXIE tube readouts would have been a very expensive option when new.
I have a price list from the 60's for a small jig borer and the machine was $8,000.00 if you wanted to ad readouts that was an additional $6,000.00

Hello and good morning,

The Deckel E3 is in principle - limited by its antique electronics - just capable of drilling holes in a row. Whereas by its mechanics, steppers and so its 3D capable.

So my approach to the retrofit idea is a very conservative one:

At first leave everything in place and try to get it running by connecting new electronic components to its original connectors.

Unsure about the steppers and a possible replacement I tested the necessary torque:





0,23m of lever x 1,2kG weight x 9,81N/kg equals 2,71Nm for the Z - axle. So around 3 Nm were enough to lift the table.

So in case I had to replace the steppers Nema 42s (the flange of the old machines steppers incidentally has got Nema42 pattern) of 10Nm should easily do the job.


But there are some gears too - probably to eliminate the odd spindle pitch of 2.5mm.








The initial idea was to get the axle running and reusing the original drivers by a new control unit:








I do have very limited electronics knowledge - but it is fairly easy to recognize that what I thought was the stepper driver is just an amplifier. So the steering signal is created by several other cards. Way too complicated for me since I just have drawings of the machine's logical structure.




So my workaround was to get a new and strong stepper driver and try to hook it up to my small mills Mach3 steering on the one side and to one of the E3's stepper motors.

I did a lot of research and finally found out that Deckel E2/E3's were usually equipped with BAUTZ / MAE HY200-4288-890 A8 steppers. Even if they look different than mine they should have the same electrical data.

So those are Hybrid (HY), Nema42 (4288), 8.9A (890) and 8 leads (A8) steppers. According to some sources Deckel spare part No. 22818000102001

here some specific data:

http://www.ahs-antriebstechnik.de/pdf-dateien-d/Schrittmotoren/HY200-Bautz.PDF

The steppers need a driver of 8.9 to 12.9A and do have a holding torque of 11 to 14Nm. All depending of how the 4 coils are connected: each 2 parallell or in a row.

Two days ago I received a single chinese (Wantai) stepper driver with 230V input and around 7A output and started testing (please excuse my primitive cabling :-) ):


I took the steering signal of my BF20's X-axle driver and fed it into the Wantai driver:





Then I conneted the A+ A- and B+ B- exits of the Wantai driver with the corresponding pins of the Deckel connector:





pins are numbered - so it didnt take a genius to find out the right ones:





The dip switch setting caused me most headache. At full amperage the motors just rattled and lost a lot of steps at a feed rate above 300mm/min (12 Inches/min). Once I reduced current setting everything ran smoothly without losing steps even with a high feed rate (I tested the X axle up to 40 inches / minute)





The Mach3 screen I tested the axles with:





To make two very long nights short: Yesterday I got one axle after another running


https://vimeo.com/135001685


https://vimeo.com/135004398

The big picture - thanks Ross for the question is the following:

I am going to replace one function of the old cabinet after another:

- build a new 2.5/3D capable stepper control based on a Mach3 breakout board and Mach3 software
- try to implement as many of the original functions as possible: gearbox shifting, lube pump, limit / home switches...

There are a lot of features that will cause me some headache:

- implement a closed loop control of the steppers

- the original 18 speed gearbox for example is pneumatically driven. 3 levers with 2,3 and 3 positions as I see it - 2x3x3=18 gears. I have to create a new control for it

- the Vogel lube pump: timer driven lube intervals. This is a must. Maybe a new timer.

- tool changer: now a pneumatic / hydraulic system has to get integrated (at least a new 24V power supply)

- brake motor (still don't know exactly how the spindle's brake motor works)

- safety functions

- cooling

- maintenance of the mill as a whole

and many many more I forgot.

----

Having passed the first hurdle - control of the stepper motors within my testing evironment - I'm now quite optimistic about the feasability of the project as a whole.

Nevertheless it will take at least up to late autumn to get everything together in an orderly fashion.

cheers

Markus

I'll echo what Ross and Milacron said.

SIP, I am always surprised how many of these machines are still around in Germany collecting dust in some shop corner. It seems that at no time were these retrofitted in any real numbers. Not really surprising.

While people still want money for them when they come up, this seems more to be rooted in cluelessness, than usefulness. I was recently offered a FP3L(E) with a Siemens control upgrade from Serbia. In that location they did more retrofits out of necessity. Control installed in original cabinet, but could not determine what type or condition. I offered 1000 E delivered to my door out of sheer curiosity and figuring the head and table might be worth that. Luckily did not happen.

Markus, thanks for the pictures. Search this forum for stuff about that machine. I don't think you will find anything encouraging though. Enjoy your enthusiasm, but curb it before sinking more money into that sandtrap than a real Deckel NC (post 1982/83) would cost you.
Keep us posted.

Martin

PS I'd find it really cool if someone would have a nice original machine of that type. But I too would not want to donate the space.

Hi Martin,

thank you very much for your reply. You know what ? Faced with this project I'm absolutely thankful for any kind of input - more than this: one desperately needs it.

In my case I was lucky enough to pick a machine which seemingly does not need too much mechanical attention. At least up to now. Already fitted with ballscrews and steppers this saves me a lot of effort. And up to now nothing is obviously broken.

Well - in the meantime I was pretty frustrated trying in vain for two nights to get the steppers running properly. But now they are working quite as they should. Some tweeking - lower input voltage for the drivers and higher amps - will increase torque but I'm sure they will do.

It takes a lot of reading for a newbie into steppers to get an overview about the relevant parameters. And one is always tempted to throw money upon a problem: Steppers are not working - lets buy extremely strong new ones... - you know what I mean.

Up to now I managed to hold back in this respect: a new breakout board, some cables, a used computer and four cheap chinese steppers is about all I plan to invest.

Next I get the spindle motor running and attach the limit switches. Thats no big hurdle I guess.

Gearbox will require some ideas: 18 gears - three pneumatically driven levers. Hmmmm.... There was an electrical solution for it and I'll find a new one for it.

But I wouldn't have started this project if it was an adventure. I just couldn't afford it and neither justify it in front of my family. So I did some research beforehand and knew I could manage this project within my limited means. And they are limited indeed. So for example I just copy the basic layout of my small cnc mill. And that's why it works: I just change one steering component at a time until I've got a completely new one.

So I'm glad its definitely no sandpit - at least from the electronical / electrical viewpoint.

Regarding space - hmmm. I already do own too many machines - all in my private home with a family of five. Three mills, two lathes - and not the smallest ones take some space.

So the Deckel was some kind of unplanned baby and one will learn to cope with it. E3 stays, two others have to go.

What next ?

Some further stepper drivers are all I need to get the machine finally running on three axles simultaneously. So maybe next week its time for some new videos.

til then - cheers

Markus

I'm still concerned about the steppers behaviour: rattling at high amperage - most probably due to excessive voltage

I learned a lot about this noise issue in connection with old stepper motors reading the experts posts in this thread: http://tinyurl.com/opv4n8e

So I will try to reduce the output voltage of the Wantai drivers. A high output voltage is advantageous at high feed rates - but it is prone to cause noise. So my steppers up to now only work at significantly reduced amperage - which is in effect a significant loss of torque.

Deep in the belly of the Weinlich E1003 control cabinet there is this huge transformer which I thought was obsolete now ... but maybe not:

Its rated 6000W, 380V-> 156V, 38A secondary (primary current around 16A when I remember right what my physics teacher told me 30 years back)








I hope this setup (dunno how this is called in english) prevents damage by overvoltage:
(does it ? pls comment)





So I hope to get the supply voltage of the Wantai driver down (it's required input voltage is 110-230V AC) at least to 164V at 400V transformer - input (two phase) or 94V at 230V transformer input voltage (single phase).

Its a pity that 94V AC is below specifications of the Wantai - driver, but maybe it works nevertheless as its not too far off.


p.S.:


I just hooked the transformer up to 230V AC and got 95V AC out, so my above calculation was about right. Does anybody know the voltage tolerance in 110V AC nets ? I guess its +-5% at least.

I'll look it up. In Germany its +-10%, i.e. +-23V. So I keep on trying to close the voltage gap :-) .

Am i reading this correctly...You are limiting the voltage because your stepper drivers are not designed for the higher value?

Isn't the voltage a requirement of the steppers?????
Won't lowering the running voltage increase the current needed to run the steppers?

Cheers Ross

Hi Ross,

this beforehand: I'm quite new to the stepper topic so I have to read a lot to get into the problematic. In my previous post there is a link where a stepper designer explains some of the issues I have experienced.

What I understood is this:

Stepper drivers limit the current through the steppers. So a low inductance of the stepper motors or overvoltage does in principle not lead to an overcurrent. Nevertheless there is a huge difference depending on which voltage comes out of your drivers.

(The Wantai DQ2722MA I use requires an input voltage of 110 to 220V AC. Quite comfortable I thought - this way I don't need an extra power supply for the drivers)

But as stepper motors do not move continiously per se - they move in steps as their name implies - they apply force to the ballscrew in kind of a hammering manner. This hammering increases with higher voltage as the power surge in the stepper motors coils occurs much quicker.

So as there is always some little play in the axle drive it can easily happen that the engine's table is pushed as far by the hammering that when the next step signal arrives the stepper motor is out of sync - it stalls or loses steps. Usually at least 1/200 turn with a 1.8° per step stepper motor. So 8 microsteps if you have put it at 1600 steps/r.

In my case I had put the drivers DIP switches at 7A (steppers are rated 8.9A) and X plus Y - axles just rattled at speeds above 20 IN/min. The heavily loaded Z - axle always worked with full amperage. So I had the idea to brake the X - axle's wheel by hand and the rattle and losing steps was gone.

When I then put the driver to 3A output everything worked smoothly up to the 40IN/min I tested them.

So my idea now is to reduce the output voltage of the steppers by supplying them with about 110V AC instead of 230V AC. Additionally I can wire the A + A' and B + B' coils of the 8 lead stepper motors in a row to increase inductance.

This way I hope to be able to increase amperage (torque) without the problems experienced.

cheers

Markus

Markus:
Thanks for the explanation...fortunate to have little stepper experience...Worked on a "Slo-Syn" system years ago that had steppers, open loop and all...
Glad those days are behind me.

Hope you get the results you are looking for.
Cheers Ross

Today Mark from Hamburg sent me another Bautz /Sigma stepper (he intended to use it for a wind generator).

Thank you very much for it. It has not quite got the 30kG I was told it had :-) - but with 8kg is still no lightweight.


Built sometime between late 70s and early 80s it has got the same Nema42 format like the steppers on my E3. Under the lid they look like siblings too: same plastic piece and four coils.


Double labeled as Bautz / Sigma 21-4270D200-F03. Most probably identical with mit some MAE Motori or Bautz HY200-42xx-xxx A8 steppers. In any case they are exchangeable (in case you need one) 7,5 to 10A current and 1100 oz-in holding torque. Looks light the right size for the rotating table I'm going to build:






each two coils connected in parallell:














first test hooked on to a Wantai DQ2722MA driver:


https://vimeo.com/135668429

Markusz said:

Today Mark from Hamburg sent me another Bautz /Sigma stepper (he intended to use it for a wind generator).

Thank you very much for it. It has not quite got the 30kG I was told it had :-) - but with 8kg is still no lightweight.


Built sometime between late 70s and early 80s it has got the same Nema42 format like the steppers on my E3. Under the lid they look like siblings too: same plastic piece and four coils.


Double labeled as Bautz / Sigma 21-4270D200-F03. Most probably identical with mit some MAE Motori or Bautz HY200-42xx-xxx A8 steppers. In any case they are exchangeable (in case you need one) 7,5 to 10A current and 1100 oz-in holding torque. Looks light the right size for the rotating table I'm going to build:

each two coils connected in parallell:

first test hooked on to a Wantai DQ2722MA driver:

Click to expand...

Hello Markus,

This is probably a long shot, but i'm going to look at a Fp2 with a weinlich E1003 controller tomorrow.
Did you manage to retrofit it? And if so, what components did you use?
All information is welcome.

All the best,
Dennis Dijkman