Contest for the most insane member (They will be a Maho owner)

Hi everyone.

So I have a few CNC machines, I'm just a guy who has a home based business, so picture a home garage.

Machines:

1984 Kitamura Mycenter 1 (10k BT35 spindle, box ways, Fanuc 6MB, runs great)
1999 Hitachi Seiki VS50 (14k Cat40 Spindle, HSK linear ways, Seicos (Fanuc)18i, currently restoring)
1984 Tree UP1000 lathe (4k integrated 3J collet/A2-5 spindle, Bosch CNC Alpha 2 control, just restored & runs like new)

I do all manner of CNC repair in my area, control (especially Fanuc), mechanical, and so on. So when a machine shop I do work for made me a deal on a machine I know I can fix, I figured... heck, why not?

Sure, it's a little big. It'll have to be partially dismantled to get it in and I'll likely waste at least a year of my life before it really works as new. But, for all you Maho people out there, wouldn't you like a MC800H trunnion 5 axis pallet changing horizontal with a 12k spindle (through spindle coolant too)? I'm told there are only a few in the world. It looks AWESOME. I can make entire V8 engine blocks in only a couple setups. 120 tools!

Yeah, it weighs over 17 tons. I had a custom modified 10 ton turbine engine gantry crane brought into my shop just to move the parts of this thing while I put it back together. I picked up a little "walkie stacker" just to put the crane together... think: Mini forklift that can lift 2000 lbs over 10' high. I have a couple dollars worth of electrical done... a couple phase perfects, some panels, some cables, some permits...

Some background:

Many years ago I had only my Kitamura CNC. I was young and I didn't even have my own shop yet but I was determined to get into automated machining (I do 3D CAD mechanical design as a profession), since I raced superbikes I felt it would make it cheaper 'cause I could make my own spares (moron). Spend a dollar to save a dime? Heh... it was worth it though, I did learn quite a bit.

So the arrangement I had with the shop I was with fell through and the Kitamura had to be removed from the premises. What to do? Well, I did what any logical person would: I built a custom crane and completely dismantled the machine bringing it's castings through a 2'x3' basement window. Then I put it back together and ran it in the basement. Ship in a bottle. Sometimes I wonder if I wanted to do it just to see if I could. Solo project too, the only help through the entire process was my wife had her cell in hand to call 911 if the castings fell on me (she stood in the next room). They were pretty heavy. I should show a photo to prove it happened...


Anyway, people always joked that if I died it would be a really big problem selling a house with a 3+ ton CNC mill in the basement. I did take it apart, craned it out and now it sings nicely in my shop.

While I'm introducing myself to the forum and the Maho lover's out there, I do have a question about the Philips 532 CNC control - don't worry I'm not going to say I'm retrofitting it and prove to the entire world I'm an ignorant fool who has NO CLUE what that actually entails - I've done complete CNC control retrofits on big CNC's in the past, the Maho would be... well, it has 240 I/O, for a start.

Anyway, my question is about upgrading. I tried contacting Heidenhain and they forwarded me to DMG Mori and I'm pretty sure they just wrote me off as insane. The 532 main board is powered by an old 386 processor. Now that isn't a deal breaker, I have been able to get my Fanuc 6MB to do impressive things, it is amazing how much an old processor can do when it's not taxed by an operating system like Windows. Anyway, the VME architecture of the control was kept right up until the MillPlus VME that had a 486 100Mhz (Sizzling speed). I'm trying to get my hands on the "MIPS" PLC development software so I can upload the PLC program off this existing controller to see how likely I could put it on a newer control, such as the MillPlus VME.

So, what do you guys think? Anyone on this forum even have an MC800H? Would I be the only one? I would feel special like those terminally ill feel when they find out no one else has quite the ailment they do. Still, I dig 5 axis, and although I do have a Hofmann tilt rotary I was going to put on my Hitachi VS50, it would never have the work envelope this machine does: X800 Y600 Z600 A30,-90 B360



This machine has features I've never even run into in person: Baluff RFID tool reader, some CO2 Magnesium machining fire supression setup? (That'll be going, I think some parts of that are already missing), the coolant tank for this is huge. Think a FEW kiddie pools. The through spindle coolant pump sucks more power than either of my smaller machine tool's spindle motors do. The tool belt holds 120 tools and makes me wonder how much money I will spend before I can even claim to have fully filled it up. It's also SK40, I'm hoping someone can tell me an anecdote about how that machine didn't really need the extra pin for the tool changer and it really was an old carry over 'cause it's German and I can just pull the dowels and run Cat40 (Someone please come on and share that story).

Anyway, there will be plenty more to come as I tear this baby down and start bringing her in. I figured at the very least the world will know of these things I did. If I stop posting, I did finally manage to get myself killed. Many people have already lost bets on that one. I'm hoping someone find this machine of interest!





Dave

LOL...you're certainly in the running for most insane member....but a good type of insanity Re Phillips 532....they are rare as hen's teeth in the USA....vast majority of Maho's are the 432. Few years ago my dream machine was a 1992 or newer Maho MH600C with the rotary table and 532 control .....basically a 4 axis vertical machining center where the head would rotate to horizontal and yet the tool changer would still change tools either position.

Then I actually came to own a 1990 Maho MH800C like that but with the usual 432 control.....got a video on Youtube showing the head rotate and changing tools. It was just too big for me, plus had the manual universal rotary table, so 3 axis programmable only....and all the safety guarding drove me nuts....so I sold it.

Maho MH8C CNC machining center German - YouTube

Note how ridiculous it is that the tool changer arm has to make "two trips" from it's "house" to insert the plug for the vertical spindle before it rotates to horizontal. Maybe there was a way to over ride the normal programming to make that operation more efficient. The Maho Doctor told me they usually just threw that plug away, as things could go haywire if it didn't work right....can't remember now if the potential problem was the plug coming out or the plug not going in and breaking the grippers.

Still, it was fun playing with that Rube Goldberg Maho....but that experience kinda dulled my desire for the MH600C with 532.

Back to your machine, maybe you said and I missed it...but have you got the usual Indramat drives ? And by SK40 I suspect you mean CAT40 with a V notch in the flange, yes ? Whether your machine has to use that or not I don't know....mine did have to use it...luckily I already had about a dozen or so like that. But you need 120 of them !!

No input that'd be helpful, but !

And a little for good measure.

I apologize for this long winded reply... its all about the details.

Hi Milacron, I'm quite familiar with your machine but only through reading most of your posts regarding it. I've been reading anything I can find about Maho's for the past few years and of course on this forum you have been synonymous with them.

I read that one of your complaints about the machines are the safety interlock switches. If I can find someone that can hook me up with the aforementioned MIPS PLC Development software I can get into the logic and rewrite how this works. If I can't do that, I could just use either relay logic or even cheap Arduino's to automatically simulate the required sequence when needed so it will run. I would only consider this if I find them intrusive, I personally find keeping the doors shut is fine as long as I have enough add on's that I don't need to get in there (Cameras to see better, CNC controlled air blast, mist, coolant, etc.) Once you can interface with the "ladder" and the spare I/O... its wonderful. I built a robotic auto machine loading attachment for a 5 axis router a few years back using this method. It was so nice to load her up with material and come in the next morning to find the job finished. I used a really old school "Autodialer" so if it did detect a problem it would call my cell phone with a prerecorded message.

Yes this machine has Indramat drives. The spindle drive is massive, by far the largest physical drive I've ever had to handle. They are worth a fortune too, but this one has a couple spares because the previous owner was having an issue with the spindle drive alarming. I'll check the traces but I hope at least one of them is in decent shape so I can toss in some fresh high quality caps and fire her up. I hope the "personality card" is not susceptible to losing it's memory. (I'm going to get an EPROM burner and start backing all this stuff up) The thing I hate most about that Main Spindle drive is that is requires min 380V 3ph (I think). Unlike Fanuc, it doesn't share the same power supply bus as everything else. The rest of the machine can be configured to run on 220 3ph. The appropriate transformer is included with the machine though, so it's more of a pain (and loss from yet another transformer) than anything else.

Now for anyone with dyslexia, Milacron's Maho is/was a MH800C and mine is a MC800H. Why on earth they would make the names so close I have no idea... I think the M stands for Mill, and I know the 800mm is the axis of longest travel, or at least the X travel?

Anyway, I think your Maho was quite a bit more complicated in some ways than this one, at least spindle/tool changer-wise. This only has one spindle and it's quite conventional as far as machining equipment goes, especially compared to the other Maho machines from that time. I can only imagine what the hydraulics looked like for your machine. This has a direct drive with a coupling to the spindle. The 50 taper machine did have a belt driven multi gear setup that looks far more complex, but this is the 12k rpm direct 40 taper optional version.

The SK is the notched Cat40 like you say... but I haven't looked close enough to see if the tool changer really needs it or if it is just for initial orientation in the tool chain loader station on the back (that has the pin). It would be a very small matter of just modifying the spindle keys to suit CAT40 and hopefully the alignment can be a non issue without having to intentionally unbalance my tool holders. I'm still not sure if the RFID system MUST be used on the machine to work safely, or if it is a nice feature that can be used if you like. Not sure where I get CAT holders with the appropriate spot for the RFID (it goes in the flange on this machine) and then there is the issue of still having balanced holders once your done.

The tool changer on this machine isn't as complex of a setup as yours is/was either, it has an arm that pulls the tool out, rotates 90 to place the replacement tool in position, put that in, then pulls sideways from the flange, pivots about a vertical axis and goes into the magazine chamber and places the tool in the magazine. It's not like my uber-fast Hitachi VS50 toolchanger arm that makes me think if that flange holding mechanism on the arm decides to somehow fail it'll make that holder pass through me and make me look like I died from a cannonball wound. That arm moves way too fast for how much weight it's holding, but that is another machine entirely (the most space efficient machine I've ever seen for it's travels and capacity though: X travel of 1000mm and yet it sits on half the area the Maho does)

Where the complexity does go up on this Maho is with the pallet changer and the trunnion tilt rotary. The tilting trunnion alone has 1 belt/2 sprocket asm, and 10 gears. 5 meshing pair... not sure about backlash on that, likely compensated and it has serious hydraulic clamping, but for continuous machining it'll be interesting to see how she behaves. The Rotary has 3 meshing gear sets that are duplicated, so 10 gears that the initial input and the last output are shared, and the 4 gears per side are mirrored. They probably preload them so the backlash is compensated that way. Holy smokes that would be expensive to duplicate though. If the tilt works like the rotary it then has 18 gears! I wonder how much this thing cost when it was new? I'll be maintaining the oil in that and watching it closely with magnetic drain bolts or something...

As far as I can tell from skimming the schematics, it has 22 hydraulic solenoid valves on it. Not sure how that stacks up against yours in terms of complexity? Following the schematics it is very simple and logical, nothing that doesn't make sense as to why it was done that way.

Although this machine has linear ways, they are fed by a Bijur style central lube system. I have a large medical grade ultrasonic cleaner so I'll be cleaning the metering valves in that and giving that a go through. I like these systems more than my Hitachi's THK QZ "Lubed for life" system that is proving to be hard to "refill" (Anyone that has dealt with these please let me know). None of the way fluid can make it in the coolant of this Maho, so I'd rather have this system. Check it once in a while (it has clear lines which is much nicer than my Kitamura) and I'm sure that entire system will outlast many other aspects of the machine.

I just skimmed through the schematic package and couldn't help but take notice at the "80486" shown on my EPC-8 processor board for the control. I'm thinking... hey wait, maybe I already have the 486? Further digging into the BOM it does have the 486DX2 running at 50Mhz. It says in the documentation for the EPC board I found online that I can set it to 66 Mhz, I'm not sure if that means a processor swap or not... also not sure how much this will really help the machine. The fastest VME Millplus was 486DX100Mhz. Can anyone here tell me if the socket is the same and if the bios will likely let me just swap in a DX100? Forgive my ignorance, I haven't researched that part yet. In some ways this control reminds me of a PC in that the main board has it's own BIOS and you can boot into it like a PC. Once you boot into the Heidenhain control its very typical PLC. It even says Heidenhain on the loading screen, can other 532 users comment if this means I have an upgrade? Did the original Philips software say Heidenhain on boot? I'm also able to hook up a standard SVGA monitor to it and it worked no problem. I read posts from Milacron and others about having issues with LCD screens so hopefully that will not apply to this generation of control?

View attachment 174052
View attachment 174051

The control has a SSD and I think somehow it even still remembers it's constants even though it's been without power for a very long time. At minimum I'm going to take screenshots of those constants so I have them. As compared to a Fanuc system I assume these "constants" are the parameters, or is there yet another section that has volatile parameters that are likely gone? I know I know... RTFM... and learn German while I'm at it.

That's enough for now I think.

Dave

Re "trouble with LCD screens" the only trouble I've ever had with an LCD was on a woodworking machine....an Italian Biesse CNC router that had it's own make of control. All Phillips 432 controls have CRT screens. I've owned probably 14 or so CNC Maho's over the years, had a few CRT's go out, fixed 'em somehow....converted one to LCD temporarily, then decided to use that LCD screen on a Charmilles wire EDM and repaired the CRT.

But to use an LCD on a 432 control you need a very low horizontal frequency LCD and you have to figure out the wiring at the Maho and reconfigure it accordingly.

Maho Doctor told me it couldn't be done....which of course just made me that much more determined to do it.... found a super low frequency LCD in Australia of all strange places...figured out which 432 video output wire was red, green, blue, vertical, horizontal and ground, wired 'er up...worked great. But for it to look good in the control ya gotta make a flat screen fit in frame meant for convex CRT screen, so it was less hassle to just fix the original CRT and use the LCD in the Charmilles.




So although I figured it out, have never actually mounted an LCD in a Maho 432 control. Have done it on a Deckel however....in that case had to make a whole new front to accommodate the flat screen. The Deckel was new enough it didn't need such low horizontal frequency and I was able to use a standard computer LCD...seems like is was maybe 75 bucks on eBay. Removed the screen from it's plastic frame, made a new front panel for the control, added a sheet of glass for protection, and the result is below.

Milacron, any other feedback in regards to the MC800H model? Seen one before? Anyone else have anything they like to mention about it?

I do have a question for the computer savvy people out there:

As I've mentioned before, my control has the Radisys EPC 8 processing board in it. It runs DOS as well as the CNC software off of a EPROM that it boots from like a drive, but it's non-volatile. In addition it has a SSD, but I assume that is for saving programs for machining and not much else.

Through the VME backplane it operates the three DAX3 "drive module boards" (axis boards), and the three IOB I/O boards. The SSD and extra serial ports do take up the second slot but they attach right to the processing board rather than through the VME bus.

As long as I kept the processing board OS DOS (I would simply transfer the EPROM software data over) and ran with the same board manufacturer could I swap in a newer board like the EPC 9 that can have a Pentium 200 Mhz processor (or even newer yet)? I assume if the software is the same the VME addresses it send out to will also be the same, everything should behave as normal? This is extremely wishful thinking I know, but it would be nice to know how much I can upgrade the control without having to actually do much besides replace the board and necessary files. As long as the original VME boards are retained I don't have to rewire the machine and as long as the original Heidenhain software with PLC program is retained I don't have to rewrite any ladder/PLC either. I equate this to getting a newer motherboard and tossing all the old PCI cards in it (back when PCI cards were really common anyway).

Still looking for the MIPS software too, even a pointer to the proper distributor of it, but I assume it is long obsolete and I want to get as much as I can before it really is impossible to find. No use me going to all the trouble fixing up this machine only to find out I have to spend a small fortune a short time later upgrading the control to a newer unit for "1 off consumer" prices.

I never had a chance to run the machine or the Philips 532 control before. Does it feel like the processing of the control is a limiting factor, or is it not the bottleneck of this machine anyway?

Still looking for anyone out there with any exposure to the MC800H Deckel Maho. I'm told they are rare... but no one?

Been translating the schematics/diagrams/manuals from German, seems the tilt of the trunnion does have a mirrored set of gears to deal with backlash.

First the input shaft which is attached to the motor toothed belt sprocket and first gear, then four reductions (technically 8 actual gears on 4 shafts) and then the main tilt gear. One advantage of this setup is the ability to still use regenerative braking with the servos, a worm gear setup of a high enough ratio is not really optimal as such. Another advantage is everything can be hardened steel. I think this setup would last much longer than a normal rotary table worm gear with any level of accuracy.

The rotary is the same, just less reductions. Both axis have these big four point hydraulic clamping systems. The pallet changer clamping system is also very cool, all mechanical with belleville spring stacks pushing the tapered clamping pins and hydraulics to make the entire system disengage.

For all the negative things I've read about Deckel Maho over the years, and seen from other models, this machine doesn't seem all that complicated in comparison. It does have this odd servo arm that is used to detect how long the tool is in the magazine so it behaves accordingly. I'm still not sure what it actually does when it is too long, yet.

I also just found a sheet (more German) that is from Indramat that details all the parameters on the "Personality card" that goes with the Spindle drive, so my earlier worries about that are gone. I'm backing this all up in several places so it'll never go missing. We had a flood last year and I was a minute away from losing half this stuff to water. All my machines, not just this one (I've had this in a cabinet for a little while), that was one of those moments where I felt like I couldn't even really soak in how much that would have sucked. I would have had to go through the seven stages of grief...

I also have learned a few German words already. lösen does NOT mean "to solve" in the context it is used in these manuals, Google translate! It means... To release or disengage. I'll bet you could really say lösen is like "Loosen", though I couldn't find that anywhere. German is more context dependent than I realized, and as such going through the translations is very time consuming. Someone that was fluent in both could retype these manuals much faster than the automated translation software programs could, well with any degree of clarity and getting the original message across.

Too bad most of the German I learn from this will only come in handy if I'm looking at more machine manuals. If I travel I still will not be able to ask where the bathroom is, although I might be able to fix their fax maschinen

Dave

Nerv said:

Still looking for anyone out there with any exposure to the MC800H Deckel Maho.

Click to expand...

I've only seen one and was not running....at HGR Surpus many year ago....older than yours, no no 532 control. Looked beautiful but too large and risky to buy for me..

Why yes Dave, I do believe you're fucking crazy....not in a bad way tho.


And, I've never been happier that I don't have a basement!

Milacron said:

I've only seen one and was not running....at HGR Surpus many year ago....older than yours, no no 532 control. Looked beautiful but too large and risky to buy for me..

Click to expand...

Wow, this just inspires me more to see if I can not only get it running well, but keep it that way.

As far as I can tell, it really one has one major flaw, the drives, and further the capacitors in those drives. I rebuilt a power supply on a Fanuc 15M a while back which took me down a long road of researching capacitors and who is making good ones and who isn't. I think if those Indramats were more reliable, especially the spindle drive, that would go a long way to keeping the machine going. If the spindle wasn't such an integrated design I could have just put in a Fanuc spindle motor:



Dave

I have a Tree UP-1000 Can you take a picture of it

they must of retrofit that Bosch Control on it or there a sec model I am unaware of I have restored mine with original control took me some time to reversed engineer the orginal controllers software (only boards from 3 Machines since it had a bank load of Eproms) but Machines runs like brand new.

Microshaped said:

I have a Tree UP-1000 Can you take a picture of it

they must of retrofit that Bosch Control on it or there a sec model I am unaware of I have restored mine with original control took me some time to reversed engineer the orginal controllers software (only boards from 3 Machines since it had a bank load of Eproms) but Machines runs like brand new.

Click to expand...

Bosch controller was the second gen of it, they also ditched the DC spindle motor for a Fanuc A/C spindle setup, drive and motor 7.5HP. My machine is 4000 rpm max, runs really nice now. All the tree schematics reflect what it is there, all from factory. Here are the before photos:

- The Bosch Control

I picked up a Siemens 802C control to put on the machine instead but I'm not sure it needs it, and I'm not sure if its worth putting any more time into it. The machine does run well, even if it is really hard to know what code is about to be processed next. It only has one little really old school calculator type digital LED line, plus the axis positions. When you hold down the distance to go they both turn into distance to go instead of current position. It does actually work and I already modified a post so I can program the lathe in CAM. Getting the threading G code cycles to come out right based off what was specified in the software with the Bosch threading cycles was a real task.

Anyway, a couple "after" pictures:





I thought I had more but I'll have to take some tomorrow. This is one project that really got out of hand. I have the belief that anything you do should be done properly. When I was well into that project I kept saying "I should have never even started this", call it severe OCD or whatever, I just couldn't stop until it was finished properly. Part of what this actually meant:

First I dismantled the machine right down to the last nut and bolt. Then I purchased a used steel paint booth with a big 42" fan that pushed some ungodly amount of air through the booth through a custom made ducting system (made by yours truly) that exited through a garage window. I have the calcs I did at the time somewhere, it was well over 10,000 CFM. Then I modified the booth using the modular design of the panels to incorporate "Paint pocket" filtration with the "Zipper strips" you can buy. This was a good mod. I then purchased a full face supplied air respiration system as well as tyvek suits, the industrial thick nitrile gloves, boots... and so on. Walter and Jesse from Breaking bad had nothing on me, I looked like I was about to head into a reactor. I read MSDS's and everything I could on the effects of Isocyanate exposure and I wasn't taking chances.

Then I built a large walk in 8' x 10' x 9' (high) sandblasting booth that had it's own recirculating air system with filters so no dust would escape into the garage. Picked up a pressure pot sandblaster from Princess Auto (Harbor freight Canadian style) that I had to modify the HELL out of just to keep it from giving me issues. Then I had to pick up a larger air compressor (I now have twin 60 gallon stand up tanks with a two stage 220V compressor, in the basement of course), which I built a condenser for out of copper tubing coming out of the pump (a coil that would go through a large tote of water to cool the tubing and air inside so the water would condense out) that would go to a separator before the tank to both keep the air cool so the dessicant dryer I installed would work, and so the water would largely get removed before the tank in the first place. This system works amazing still to this day. I use the crystal kitty litter for the desiccant and it works great too.

Ultrasonically cleaned every fastener, ultrasonically cleaned the rusted braided hoses in heated phosphoric acid (in plastic bags inside the cleaning unit so the acid doesn't actually touch the machine), oh MAN!! You should see that! It did an AMAZING job, then I cleaned the hoses in a ATF/Varsol blend I have in the parts washer to keep the lines from corroding again, worked perfect. And on... and on...

Just dipping that big heat exchanger for the cabinet in the ultrasonic was awesome. To watch all that crap from years of not running filters just come right out was the most amazing feeling. You should see it now, like new, with a two stage filter, heh.

Anyway, I painted the lathe with expensive 2 pack isocyanate urethane paint and primer. This stuff is very tough and with the sandblasted steel it really adhered. This machine as it sits now is in much better shape than it was new, they never did that level of prep before they painted them at the factory.

I could easily start a long thread just about the restoration I did on that lathe. I'm in the middle of going through my Hitachi now though I'm trying REAL hard not to get as carried away as I did with that Tree. (I sold off the paint booth and got rid of the blasting setup) By the way, I've been trying really hard to find the proper Hitachi style way cover large panel style wipers that are used on most of machine and all the wiper people I talk to don't have anything quite the same. If anyone does know where to get the OEM stuff I would like to if I can. They use it on their lathes from that vintage as well (1999)

I remember at one point dismantling the TREE ball nuts and ultrasonically cleaning the balls separate (as they should be) and the nuts, then repacking the works. It was crazy, maybe a little stupid. I thought I was going insane. People that talk about how it is hard just to take a precision machine apart without causing damage are right on the money. "First do no harm" is a tall order when doing a project like this. Just the amount I had to learn about lubrication and the chemical composition of every single lubricant I intended to use in conjunction with every elastomer and type of metal it was going to come into contact with was surprising. Some of the discussions with the chemist from Mobil also left me really curious about what kind of stuff is in chemicals from the US vs Canada. (Some of that US spec stuff will literally shorten your lifespan, coolant is also pretty scary stuff) Using the wrong stuff is what damaged that lathe in the first place. That and a pinch of neglect.

Anyway, if you are going to do something, do it right, right? Part of my problem is I never ask for help, so absolutely everything, from wiring everything, sorting bolts, rebuilding hydraulics I do alone. It feels almost like a way to prove to oneself what your capable of tackling. Once again on the Hitachi I've had a buddy come in to "needle scale" paint off or some other menial task so I could focus on something more important, just as an attempt of not getting so carried away.

I wonder just what will happen with the giant Maho when it starts coming apart...

Dave

Hi Nerv
That is some sort of mill you have there, makes my 1991 MH800C (CNC rotary swivel table) look small although the work envelope is the same!
I have never seen one like yours, and I am still trying to retro fit my Maho with Camsoft Pro, time is an issue for me need to keep some $s turning over, with functioning machines.
I have just had one of the Indramat drives repaired (Y axis), capacitors again most of them now replaced.
Best of luck and looking forward to how it all goes.
Burgs

I have had mine up to 4000 Rpm but OMG lol with the DC motor she sounds like a 747 Getting ready to take of it has a 14" dia drive pulley its a 5HP Dc


Its nice to talk with someone who has a Tree UP-1000 in running condition I would like to get mine all painted someday Maybe find a tail stock for it would make my day but I would really like to see one with a Parts catcher Option on it

Keep Up the good work !!

Sorry to Get you off Topic on this thread

Milacron said:

LOL...you're certainly in the running for most insane member....but a good type of insanity Re Phillips 532....they are rare as hen's teeth in the USA....vast majority of Maho's are the 432. Few years ago my dream machine was a 1992 or newer Maho MH600C with the rotary table and 532 control .....basically a 4 axis vertical machining center where the head would rotate to horizontal and yet the tool changer would still change tools either position.

Then I actually came to own a 1990 Maho MH800C like that but with the usual 432 control.....got a video on Youtube showing the head rotate and changing tools. It was just too big for me, plus had the manual universal rotary table, so 3 axis programmable only....and all the safety guarding drove me nuts....so I sold it.

Maho MH8C CNC machining center German - YouTube

Note how ridiculous it is that the tool changer arm has to make "two trips" from it's "house" to insert the plug for the vertical spindle before it rotates to horizontal. Maybe there was a way to over ride the normal programming to make that operation more efficient. The Maho Doctor told me they usually just threw that plug away, as things could go haywire if it didn't work right....can't remember now if the potential problem was the plug coming out or the plug not going in and breaking the grippers.

Still, it was fun playing with that Rube Goldberg Maho....but that experience kinda dulled my desire for the MH600C with 532.

Back to your machine, maybe you said and I missed it...but have you got the usual Indramat drives ? And by SK40 I suspect you mean CAT40 with a V notch in the flange, yes ? Whether your machine has to use that or not I don't know....mine did have to use it...luckily I already had about a dozen or so like that. But you need 120 of them !!

Click to expand...

Well, worked with an MAHO 800 C not that long ago, fantastic machine, strong and extreme powerful. It had been drilling holes and milling slots and pockets vertical for 25 years, it is the model with B axis in the table, but the rotary was never used. I got extremely excited and had it running horizontal machining, and edited an 4axis Fanuc post to work with the Phillips control in Mastercam:-)

It can mill with indexable face mills in a way that the Matsuura VX-1000 I'm working with now would only dream of:-) well the VX can move extremely fast, drill holes faster than I've ever seen, but sounds as a child playing organ, because the frame is soft as butter, and the shielding around the machine is poorly made. Can't run with a 50mm indexable face mill, without breaking the inserts because of vibrations at only 1mm cuts.

They don't make machines like in the good old days, no liniar guide rails, only grinded rails(don't know the name in English) and oil. The MAHO will keep on running as long you kep it happy with oil:-) Says a 32year old toolmaker:-)

Thank you very much for sharing Uhrenholt. This Maho does still have the recirculating roller linear ways, but still it's monstrous considering it's a 40 taper. (It did come 50 taper, identical machine save the spindle and tool changing parts). It doesn't have the rapids of new machines in the X and Y, but instead it has fine pitch lead screws and the accuracy that comes along with it, I would prefer that any day, it's not like I run my machines at full rapid when I'm building prototype parts anyway, and with a Horizontal I would think with a big multi-sided tombstone fixture I could really put out parts without even having to zip the machine fast. Just the tool changes I would save would be nice.

The Z axis has the long pitch ballscrew that my Hitachi VS50 has everywhere. The Hitachi was 100% built to move quickly though, so it makes sense.

I'm really pleased to hear you found it better in some respects to a Matsuura, that alone makes me want to just work on it, sleep in it... not walk away from the project until she runs like new.

I also like hearing from various sources that the Philips control was/is actually pretty good. I'm not sure yet but my control has a SSD in it now, it may not be a tall order to increase it since that part of the control is largely PC. I have no need or intention to program on the machine, I have CAM for that and already program a 5 axis for a client of mine so really it comes down to how well it can keep the tools where they need to be and get through the lines quick enough to not bog down.

Thanks again for sharing!

- In regards to that tree lathe: It's nice to see another one! Mine is so rare it was almost impossible getting any information regarding it at all. Even the people that deal with the old tree inventory were having a tough time finding evidence it even existed with the Bosch control. When I hear people complain about the lack of support they get on whatever machine they have, I think about that lathe and how when you own one of those, it's not about a lack of support anymore. It's more about that feeling when you are stranded on a island and you know no one is coming to help you, ever.

The VX series is not made in Japan, but in Taiwan or in that area. Spindle is from Matsuura I think, but machine is assembled there to keep costs down.

Maybe they made the frame out of scrap metal from old Tuk-Tuks and scooters:-)

The control was ahead of its time I think, it can do a lot of stuff, as it can multitask and do 3D moves with all 4 axis simultaneously! Running with an 386 CPU!

Tearing the MC800H Deckel Maho down now, I thought I would post with a little progress report for anyone that would find a machine like this getting dismantled, moved, cleaned/refurbished/painted, and installed interesting:

One of the local hydraulic shops actually had the proper fittings for capping off the hydraulic hoses. This way I don't even need to drain everything nor worry about anything contaminating the system. When I reassemble it I'll just run fresh fluid through the whole thing just to ensure its all really clean. So much less work than my tree lathe, that machine needed every single hydraulic part completely dismantled and cleaned.

Anyone have much experience with the mist collector system shown? It's a multi stage unit with a couple enclosures, it appears to have electrostatic filtration as part of the process. I worked on a Feeler high precision lathe recently that had a micro version of the same thing on it, besides that I've never seen these before.

Cleaning out the chip conveyor that had been setting in the weather for 3 years has to be in the top 5 nastiest things I've ever had to clean.

All the exterior panels have been removed and some of the bottom trays, such as the long one under the tool changer magazine. I'll try to take more pics with a nicer camera soon. This machine is like a cat when it gets wet, it shrinks to half it's size with the panels removed.

I do have to applaud the Germans on this particular design, this machine is actually not all that complex really, not compared to some machines I've worked on.

Also they really like to put sealed connectors on one end of major cables. This alone is something rare that has saved a ton of time. Instead of having to fish cables through strain reliefs and pull from terminal strips it's just "click" and go.

More to follow! Moving some of these castings will be fun! I'm debating cutting out my floor in the shop where it is going and pouring a really thick block, like several feet thick. The machine is a three point contact to the floor design so the accuracy of the machine will not change either way, but still it would be nice knowing it's 16+ ton weight is well supported.

Dave

Wow! An interesting project, for sure--interesting story you've told as well. You're from Alberta, right? Explains a lot.

As for the control side of things have you been in contact with Jim at CNC Repair out here in Langley. They've always specialized
in the electronics of older machines...

CNC Repair With Engineering Excellence Since 1988