Makino Customer Service Letdown!

I'm newer to machining and have a few older machines like a Hurco and Matsuura. Anytime I've had a question about something on any of these machines the support line at the companies has been awesome and got me right through my problems. I recently worked my way up (I thought) to a 2005 Makino S33 that I bought from a company going out of business and it definitely ran when I purchased it. I've had it for about a month now and I have got everything hooked up correctly and all of the fluids filled, everything powers up and I can jog XYZ by holding the over travel button in but I get a alarm code LS28 for limit switch 28 and it wont allow me to start the spindle. I called Makino just like I have done in the past with the other companies of machines I own and they told me that they know what it is and that LS28 is now referred to as LS905 but if I want them to tell me where the limit switch is I have to pay them $2500 for yearly phone support. This is insane to me!! I've also searched my manuals and can't find LS28 or LS905. I will include pictures of my conversation with Makino and of the alarm code, any help will be greatly appreciated!!! THIS WILL BE THE LAST MAKINO I EVER OWN!! Thanks again everyone for the help and hopefully I can get this machine going with your help.

Sound like your trouble shooting.

Maybe with some better pictures and an electrical schematic, someone here might be able to walk you through it.

I'm not familiar with that machine.

bigrsthe1 said:

I'm newer to machining and have a few older machines like a Hurco and Matsuura. Anytime I've had a question about something on any of these machines the support line at the companies has been awesome and got me right through my problems. I recently worked my way up (I thought) to a 2005 Makino S33 that I bought from a company going out of business and it definitely ran when I purchased it. I've had it for about a month now and I have got everything hooked up correctly and all of the fluids filled, everything powers up and I can jog XYZ by holding the over travel button in but I get a alarm code LS28 for limit switch 28 and it wont allow me to start the spindle. I called Makino just like I have done in the past with the other companies of machines I own and they told me that they know what it is and that LS28 is now referred to as LS905 but if I want them to tell me where the limit switch is I have to pay them $2500 for yearly phone support. This is insane to me!! I've also searched my manuals and can't find LS28 or LS905. I will include pictures of my conversation with Makino and of the alarm code, any help will be greatly appreciated!!! THIS WILL BE THE LAST MAKINO I EVER OWN!! Thanks again everyone for the help and hopefully I can get this machine going with your help.

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Makino or their dealer?

Do you have a wiring diagram? If not, you need to get one.

Normally, machine builders are not very imaginative. If there is a physical limit switch LS28, I'd bet there are wires in the cabinet also labeled LS28. Start tracing or just jump around it for now.

If it's a virtual limit (set by the PLC), then you're probably hooped.

Makino direct

moonlight machine said:

Makino or their dealer?

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So after scouring my manuals for hours I finally discovered that LS28 AKA LS950 is the air pressure switch. I think its really petty of Makino to not just tell me this was what the code meant. They literally told me I had to pay them $2500 for that information. I will never own another Makino again. After some inspection I figured out that the air regulator on the machine was bad and not letting more than 25 PSI in. I'll be replacing it this week and keep everyone updated. Thanks again everyone for the comments and suggestions for help!

Sounds like Makino needs to liquidate or merge. I don’t own a Makino and probably will never need a cnc machine but if I ever do or I know someone looking at or into a Makino I’ll tell them your story and avoid them like the Plague

Homebrewblob said:

Sounds like Makino needs to liquidate or merge. I don’t own a Makino and probably will never need a cnc machine but if I ever do or I know someone looking at or into a Makino I’ll tell them your story and avoid them like the Plague

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Totally. I sold this machine as soon as I got it hooked up correctly because of this

Homebrewblob said:

Sounds like Makino needs to liquidate or merge. I don’t own a Makino and probably will never need a cnc machine but if I ever do or I know someone looking at or into a Makino I’ll tell them your story and avoid them like the Plague

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There are so many ironies to your statement I don't know where to begin lol.

Makino S33 Please Help!!!

'ere @Homebrew read this maybe ^^^.


It's interesting to me that Makino makes some of the best machine tools on the planet and seems to stand by them in a very substantial way.

DMG and Mori Seiki "Did" the acquisitions and merger thing to create DMG Mori - not and I repeat not known for supporting legacy equipment for virtually any amount of money and kinda weak on new equipment because it IS a giant conglomerated behemoth. Eventually they will get their act together (one day). Dr. Mori kinda saved their collective asses.

Hardinge went into receivership / restructured and now their focus is mainly in China and Taiwan - no judgment but tech support / phone support has slowly been ghosting itself.

MAZAK try to be helpful but there are real limits there.

For ME Matsuura HQ will always direct me to my local vendors who only want to sell me NEW machines ...

etc. etc.

Seems OP got lucky with Hurco being helpful.

So a different view through the prism I am actually grateful that the OP shared how Makino are able to fully support old equipment and in some cases really old equipment.

It's not how and what Op want's per se (I totally get that), but they actual did give him the vital clue to find it in the manual. (free of charge).

So @Homebrew if you were somehow able to convince everyone on Earth that Makino should be avoided "like the plague " then I'm not so sure OP would have been able to sell his machine so quickly.

Let's say I had the machine for sale and the buyer was a little hesitant...

Buyer: "I dunno man it's a 2004 machine you are asking $27K ??? What if something goes wrong with it ?"

Me: "Makino full technical support via email, phone etc. for $2500 / year ".

Buyer: " That seems pretty steep to me".

Me: "Yeah but you get REAL tech support / info on the machine to sort out ANY problems, tell you what I'll knock $2500 off the asking price and you can register with Makino, that way you are covered. "

etc.

"Quality" for anything never comes free.

cameraman said:

There are so many ironies to your statement I don't know where to begin lol.

Makino S33 Please Help!!!

'ere @Homebrew read this maybe ^^^.


It's interesting to me that Makino makes some of the best machine tools on the planet and seems to stand by them in a very substantial way.

DMG and Mori Seiki "Did" the acquisitions and merger thing to create DMG Mori - not and I repeat not known for supporting legacy equipment for virtually any amount of money and kinda weak on new equipment because it IS a giant conglomerated behemoth. Eventually they will get their act together (one day). Dr. Mori kinda saved their collective asses.

Hardinge went into receivership / restructured and now their focus is mainly in China and Taiwan - no judgment but tech support / phone support has slowly been ghosting itself.

MAZAK try to be helpful but there are real limits there.

For ME Matsuura HQ will always direct me to my local vendors who only want to sell me NEW machines ...

etc. etc.

Seems OP got lucky with Hurco being helpful.

So a different view through the prism I am actually grateful that the OP shared how Makino are able to fully support old equipment and in some cases really old equipment.

It's not how and what Op want's per se (I totally get that), but they actual did give him the vital clue to find it in the manual. (free of charge).

So @Homebrew if you were somehow able to convince everyone on Earth that Makino should be avoided "like the plague " then I'm not so sure OP would have been able to sell his machine so quickly.

Let's say I had the machine for sale and the buyer was a little hesitant...

Buyer: "I dunno man it's a 2004 machine you are asking $27K ??? What if something goes wrong with it ?"

Me: "Makino full technical support via email, phone etc. for $2500 / year ".

Buyer: " That seems pretty steep to me".

Me: "Yeah but you get REAL tech support / info on the machine to sort out ANY problems, tell you what I'll knock $2500 off the asking price and you can register with Makino, that way you are covered. "

etc.

"Quality" for anything never comes free.

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I disagree, 2500$ for PHONE support? Are you saying for 2500$ they’ll give you a warranty and fix whatever breaks? Or just PHONE support?? And how do you know for that 2500$ Price they will even have replacement parts? What happens when you pay 2500$ and they say “sorry that part is no longer available”.

Cause phone support can eat one as far as I’m concerned. They did tell him the new part number/name and I can’t say if that was to help or by chance. I noticed that even tho you praised Makino, they have nearly the smallest section on this website and it seems are in themselves rare in a bad way but I digress, 2500$ for phone support is A bit much.

Homebrewblob said:

I disagree, 2500$ for PHONE support? Are you saying for 2500$ they’ll give you a warranty and fix whatever breaks? Or just PHONE support?? And how do you know for that 2500$ Price they will even have replacement parts? What happens when you pay 2500$ and they say “sorry that part is no longer available”.

Cause phone support can eat one as far as I’m concerned. They did tell him the new part number/name and I can’t say if that was to help or by chance. I noticed that even tho you praised Makino, they have nearly the smallest section on this website and it seems are in themselves rare in a bad way but I digress, 2500$ for phone support is A bit much.

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Aye, but it's actual resources i.e. PDF's and technical documentation you might not be able to obtain otherwise (sent to you in digital form). + Folks that know what the foibles are when you take something apart and sometimes the cascade of troubles that have to be tidied up and set straight. I.e. the info is not out there free on the web to download like some of the older Fanuc based info.

They "Makino" have spare parts for machines from even the Makino Leblond days or even for a machines like KA -55 + some of their really old wire EDM machines.

I know $2500 for a years worth of "Dumb questions" and documentation from experts is not for everybody. But not bad at all to put a second hand machine really right that would have cost $350K $450K $550K etc. new .

Makino does have it's own (on line) portal so that may also explain why there is not a massive presence on PM forum.

+ PM forum is concerned a lot with fixing troubles with older machines so if there were a lot of troubles with older Makino's you'd hear a lot more about that I think. {Not 100% trouble free obvi , nor is any machine really .].

That's their way of keeping 20 skilled techs on staff + parts. I don't have a problem supporting such a program ~ Really depends how much your time is and how reliable you need your machines to be. Sure one could spends weeks / months trouble shooting a complex cnc machine problem and never get there.

As I said in the other thread I have paid Solidworks Maintenance for years and never really had to ask for tech support (one license I had was $2500/ year / seat).

Makino being Fanuc based has a greater reliability / longevity factor to it.

@Homebrew I'm trying to think of a company that has all of the criteria and wants (you outline) for second hand machines FREE ?

I don't have a problem with working with a slightly smaller specialized company rather than a giant conglomerate - I think that reflects my own values better and I think it makes it much easier to connect the dots with Japan if deeper technical info is required. Makino has a good research capability also on US soil independently.

Again different view through the same prism - works for some and not for some - depending on situation and personal preferences.

Horses for courses.

cameraman said:

Aye, but it's actual resources i.e. PDF's and technical documentation you might not be able to obtain otherwise (sent to you in digital form). + Folks that know what the foibles are when you take something apart and sometimes the cascade of troubles that have to be tidied up and set straight. I.e. the info is not out there free on the web to download like some of the older Fanuc based info.

They "Makino" have spare parts for machines from even the Makino Leblond days or even for a machines like KA -55 + some of their really old wire EDM machines.

I know $2500 for a years worth of "Dumb questions" and documentation from experts is not for everybody. But not bad at all to put a second hand machine really right that would have cost $350K $450K $550K etc. new .

Makino does have it's own (on line) portal so that may also explain why there is not a massive presence on PM forum.

+ PM forum is concerned a lot with fixing troubles with older machines so if there were a lot of troubles with older Makino's you'd hear a lot more about that I think. {Not 100% trouble free obvi , nor is any machine really .].

That's their way of keeping 20 skilled techs on staff + parts. I don't have a problem supporting such a program ~ Really depends how much your time is and how reliable you need your machines to be. Sure one could spends weeks / months trouble shooting a complex cnc machine problem and never get there.

As I said in the other thread I have paid Solidworks Maintenance for years and never really had to ask for tech support (one license I had was $2500/ year / seat).

Makino being Fanuc based has a greater reliability / longevity factor to it.

@Homebrew I'm trying to think of a company that has all of the criteria and wants (you outline) for second hand machines FREE ?

I don't have a problem with working with a slightly smaller specialized company rather than a giant conglomerate - I think that reflects my own values better and I think it makes it much easier to connect the dots with Japan if deeper technical info is required. Makino has a good research capability also on US soil independently.

Again different view through the same prism - works for some and not for some - depending on situation and personal preferences.

Horses for courses.

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So your making the claims Makino HAS the parts and also will provide you with x y z technical data yet you don’t work for nor have used Makino tech support? That argument holds no weight imo.

I never said free anything so don’t put words in my mouth, 2500$ for PHONE support in my eyes is a complete overcharge. What the phone support is worth really depends on who you are.

Looks to me like the OP would of been ripped off for 2500$ for them to tell him the DEFINITION of the error code. But different views I suppose

Homebrewblob said:

I disagree, 2500$ for PHONE support? Are you saying for 2500$ they’ll give you a warranty and fix whatever breaks? Or just PHONE support?? And how do you know for that 2500$ Price they will even have replacement parts? What happens when you pay 2500$ and they say “sorry that part is no longer available”.

Cause phone support can eat one as far as I’m concerned. They did tell him the new part number/name and I can’t say if that was to help or by chance. I noticed that even tho you praised Makino, they have nearly the smallest section on this website and it seems are in themselves rare in a bad way but I digress, 2500$ for phone support is A bit much.

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That was just for phone support

Homebrewblob said:

So your making the claims Makino HAS the parts and also will provide you with x y z technical data yet you don’t work for nor have used Makino tech support? That argument holds no weight imo.

I never said free anything so don’t put words in my mouth, 2500$ for PHONE support in my eyes is a complete overcharge. What the phone support is worth really depends on who you are.

Looks to me like the OP would of been ripped off for 2500$ for them to tell him the DEFINITION of the error code. But different views I suppose

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dandrummerman21 said:

What is the number of the alarm?

If you hit the soft key on the screen (says ALARM), what is the alarm number, and what does it say?

The alarm button is barely shown in the image you posted.

You're better off searching your manuals for the relevant alarm.

At the very least, I could cross reference the alarm number to see if it might match something on our a88 horizontal (doubtful but possible)




While I appreciate that many companies don't charge for simple help, I will say that Makino's maintenance plan can be worth it. They are very helpful. We don't use it now, but when we got our A88 (used) it was tired and neglected and there were dozens of complicated things wrong with the machine and they sent plenty of extra documentation on how to fix some of it.

While "all you want" is this limit switch location, you might end up using a lot more than you thought you would. Consider it the cost of business and roll it into the cost of your machine (if you end up paying for it, which you obviously won't)



Edit: if LS28 really does correspond to LS905, you should be looking at the air pressure switch.

View attachment 295759

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@Homebrewblob , Post #11 ^^^ from the thread https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3597452

that I encouraged you to perhaps glance at.

I have dealt with Makino more on the 'New machine" side over a number of years and the people I trust the most have always spoken well of Makino (folks that have worked for Makino for many years and spent time in Japan also) - thanks to @bigersthe1 I see there are also viable options for second hand machinery. If need be (given the current climate) one can mix and match new and second hand machines.

So YES support "Peeps" at Makino will send you technical documentation. They are not going to climb through the phone receiver and fix the machine for you*.




^^^ From recent post (From Brian Pfluger)[Click to expand], on Wire EDM section, found here Leblond Makino Wire EDM

So @Homebrew you can PM Brian Pfluger and make further enquires (if you wish) or phone Makino directly in terms of what they will and will not send you and which machines they can and can't source parts for.

Glad @Bigrsthe1 got to solve his problem and successfully sell the machine - hopefully the person that bought it saw some value in the acquisition for what they wanted to do ?


____________________________________________________________________________________________________

* As a manual machinist @Homebrewblob / not cnc I thought you might get a kick out of this K-55 | Makino

(you can hit the translate button to make it go from Japanese to English.).

and perhaps this フライス盤 | Makino

Apparently they still make those but don't know if they are made in Singapore and sold into Japan or what, but kinda cute alternative to usual "beasts" they sell.

cameraman said:

@Homebrew I'm trying to think of a company that has all of the criteria and wants (you outline) for second hand machines FREE ?

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Actually, all of the US companies I dealt with did. K&T, American Tool, Sundstrand, Cincinnati. And they all provided full schematics with the machines. And they all had them for sale if they were lost somehow (expensive but available at least). And in many cases you could actually build a complete new control from their schematics. And the phone guys would walk you through the schematics, step by step, until you found the problem. Free, even if you bought a second-hand machine (calls got prioritized but no complaints about that, beggars can't be choosers.)

So when I hear people here talking about "buy domestic !" and "we pay for quality !" I just laugh.

The service economy didn't mean you now got service. It meant that now you get to pay extra for any service you could get ... if you could get it at all.

About mazak, I have to thank them. We got an ex-fms horizontal for cheap because they wanted $6,000 to change the software and do mumble-mumblecough-cough "changes" of some sort. Turns out the "changes" involved shorting out a couple of limit switches and a fabbed window to keep the coolant in. And the software problem was solved by running the machine in standalone mode. Actual cost, $100.

Not real excited about the quality of the service received for money paid. Luckily, we didn't pay it, and it discouraged others from buying the machine so thank you, yamazaki ! 'preciate it !

And oh yeah, the assholes never did get around to doing a "transfer" ... why you should have to "transfer" something you bought and paid for, I dunno. But if you want to get their service, you have to pay several thousand to "register" in a different area. Just to buy parts. Luckily, there's guys who moonlight ....

Sorry, camera. Not impressed with these people. Any of them.

EmanuelGoldstein said:

Actually, all of the US companies I dealt with did. K&T, American Tool, Sundstrand, Cincinnati. And they all provided full schematics with the machines. And they all had them for sale if they were lost somehow (expensive but available at least). And in many cases you could actually build a complete new control from their schematics. And the phone guys would walk you through the schematics, step by step, until you found the problem. Free, even if you bought a second-hand machine (calls got prioritized but no complaints about that, beggars can't be choosers.)

So when I hear people here talking about "buy domestic !" and "we pay for quality !" I just laugh.

The service economy didn't mean you now got service. It meant that now you get to pay extra for any service you could get ... if you could get it at all.

About mazak, I have to thank them. We got an ex-fms horizontal for cheap because they wanted $6,000 to change the software and do mumble-mumblecough-cough "changes" of some sort. Turns out the "changes" involved shorting out a couple of limit switches and a fabbed window to keep the coolant in. And the software problem was solved by running the machine in standalone mode. Actual cost, $100.

Not real excited about the quality of the service received for money paid. Luckily, we didn't pay it, and it discouraged others from buying the machine so thank you, yamazaki ! 'preciate it !

And oh yeah, the assholes never did get around to doing a "transfer" ... why you should have to "transfer" something you bought and paid for, I dunno. But if you want to get their service, you have to pay several thousand to "register" in a different area. Just to buy parts. Luckily, there's guys who moonlight ....

Sorry, camera. Not impressed with these people. Any of them.

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Yeah sure (thanks for chiming in)...

OP's machine is a Makino not a Mazak nor a yester year machine from perhaps better days.

Unfortunately those days are gone.

Although there may be a reason why detailed schematics you can build from are not handed out so liberally LOL ? Facepalm.

BEING in the USA and the USA actually not building any machine tools apart from HAAS means that anyone you deal with even from Okuma is going to find it challenging to connect the various dots for more challenging and obscure technical inquiries / trouble shooting,

USA local office to USA head office to appropriate division in Japan or elsewhere and then connect the dots back to the USA again. So at least having a reasonable cadre of skilled and experienced technical support "Peeps" on US soil trained by Makino themselves is a plus (at least in my eyes).

By contrast some of the machines / iron made in Taiwan can be pretty good but kinda tricky to have access to a "Deep" bench on US soil.

It is what it is (cough cough) -

In Bigrthe1's case I don't fault his personal decision and reasoning to never want to have anything to do with Makino again (older second hand machine). That's his decision for what he needs to do with what he has to do for himself. That's literally his business.

My own view / purpose / needs are different.

cameraman said:

Yeah sure (thanks for chiming in)...

OP's machine is a Makino not a Mazak nor a yester year machine from perhaps better days.

Unfortunately those days are gone.

Although there may be a reason why detailed schematics you can build from are not handed out so liberally LOL ? Facepalm.

BEING in the USA and the USA actually not building any machine tools apart from HAAS means that anyone you deal with even from Okuma is going to find it challenging to connect the various dots for more challenging and obscure technical inquiries / trouble shooting,

USA local office to USA head office to appropriate division in Japan or elsewhere and then connect the dots back to the USA again. So at least having a reasonable cadre of skilled and experienced technical support "Peeps" on US soil trained by Makino themselves is a plus (at least in my eyes).

By contrast some of the machines / iron made in Taiwan can be pretty good but kinda tricky to have access to a "Deep" bench on US soil.

It is what it is (cough cough) -

In Bigrthe1's case I don't fault his personal decision and reasoning to never want to have anything to do with Makino again (older second hand machine). That's his decision for what he needs to do with what he has to do for himself. That's literally his business.

My own view / purpose / needs are different.

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I feel like your mixing new and used machines, Makino will not support you unless you pay the 2500 from my understanding. Even then it’s a crop shoot as to weather they will actually have the parts you need, I agree there’s a lot of companies that will support you on a used machine, even grizzly will send you serial cards for 20$ not 2500$.

It’s not worth It to most ppl on the used market to pay 2500$ for phone support and I agree with that. Makino seems like they are only out for themselves and unfortunately that’s no help to us. Also translate from Japanese to English?, if I pay the 2500$ does that mean I still have to google translate what they send me? And I take note that you was able to post the needed info that the op needs even though you didn’t charge 2500$ To do so, did you pay 2500$ for that info?

End of story if you got overhead that needs 2500$ for phone support then I think you need to re-evaluate your Business practices

I don’t need to phone Makino because from what I’ve learned I will never own one thanks anyway

Also I’m curious why you think it’s a viable option for a struggling business to have to pay 2500$ to be told “sorry we dont have that part available anymore”? Seems to me they are greedy

And I bet ya if I have a friend looking into cnc machines and I tell him Makino wont do shit without 2500$ he steers clear of that machine

Homebrewblob said:

I feel like your mixing new and used machines, Makino will not support you unless you pay the 2500 from my understanding. Even then it’s a crop shoot as to weather they will actually have the parts you need, I agree there’s a lot of companies that will support you on a used machine, even grizzly will send you serial cards for 20$ not 2500$.

It’s not worth It to most ppl on the used market to pay 2500$ for phone support and I agree with that. Makino seems like they are only out for themselves and unfortunately that’s no help to us. Also translate from Japanese to English?, if I pay the 2500$ does that mean I still have to google translate what they send me? And I take note that you was able to post the needed info that the op needs even though you didn’t charge 2500$ To do so, did you pay 2500$ for that info?

End of story if you got overhead that needs 2500$ for phone support then I think you need to re-evaluate your Business practices

I don’t need to phone Makino because from what I’ve learned I will never own one thanks anyway

Also I’m curious why you think it’s a viable option for a struggling business to have to pay 2500$ to be told “sorry we dont have that part available anymore”? Seems to me they are greedy

And I bet ya if I have a friend looking into cnc machines and I tell him Makino wont do shit without 2500$ he steers clear of that machine

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Seems unlikely that Makino gives a rats ass if you own one. So, homebrewblob, do you have any influence on anyone that buys half million dollar machine tools? I did not think so. Why do you think Makino cares what some hillbilly has to say?

moonlight machine said:

Seems unlikely that Makino gives a rats ass if you own one. So, homebrewblob, do you have any influence on anyone that buys half million dollar machine tools? I did not think so. Why do you think Makino cares what some hillbilly has to say?

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That's the exact attitude that doomed the US machine tool industry and the US auto industry and god-knows what other US industry. I kinda like Leblond-Makino, they make nice stuff, but still ... it doesn't cost them doodly-squat to answer some simple questions for free and it makes their "delight our customers" hogwash carry a bit of honesty.

2500$ may sound steep if you're buying the first "real" machine, which happened to cost half a mil new, but just maybe they, as a company, simply don't want to deal with the end user, they very much prefer to deal with professional service outfits that repair few Makinos a month, and the 2500$ for an ability to get an actual engineer on the other end to tell you what/how and why starts to make a lot of sense...

it is very often very difficult for qualified engineer to troubleshoot problems on such equipment when the user at the machine has no repair and maintenance skills at all and expect to be told to jump pin X with Y to solve/bypass the problem or press button A, B and C to fix the machine

you don't buy a S class Mercedes and expect free or nearly consultation at the factory (not even dealership) don't you?

and think from a business point of view from their end - how many service calls could a qualified engineer take during a day? including time it takes to locate the information needed regarding some 10 or 15 year old machine, do you really expect them to include that cost into price of new machines continuously?

these are the reasons why it costs that much to get a simple answer for an expensive piece of equipment

a while ago I helped a local university to get their scanning electron microscope back running after a bodged nvram battery swap attempt, Siemens control on it, and Siemens said the'll need to fly in a tech at a cost of 3500$/day, and there is a wait time of 3-4 weeks for one to become available, I was able to get the machine up and running after half a day, dug through their documentation for the machine, found recovery floppies, the recovery batch file didn't work because one of the floppies had a bad sector and file couldn't be red, but fortunately that file wasn't missing on the machine, manually copied the missing parts and the 300 or 400k SEM was back in working order at the end of the day... that was when it was less than 6 years old as far as I remember, few years after - same issue, but this time Siemens said they don't have technicians qualified in that old control any more so they stopped supporting it at all, and offered to sell a new SEM for half a mil