How to spend $24k for a Budding Metrology Lab

UtahTechFabLab · Tuesday at 12:20 AM

Hi y'all,

This is similar to another thread I created recently, but I am the manager of the engineering fabrication lab at a state university, and I've been given about $24,000 from the state to purchase metrology equipment. As or right now we have basically nothing -- until recently our "granite surface plate" was a used piece of granite tile!

I'm planning on purchasing all the basics; a better granite surface plate, various micrometers, gauge blocks and pins, etc. I'm scouring the internet for good-qualiry used equipment, and I'm exploring discounts for educational institutions where I can.

But what would you buy? Have you found tools that are especially useful but lesser known?

Along similar lines, I would like a small CMM, but I'm not certain that I can afford one. I'm crossing my fingers that I'll find a good used one somewhere online, but if you suggest a particular type/brand, feel free to weigh in!

Two points:

One, we use our metrology equipment to teach future engineers first-hand about how things are measured. This makes them more intelligent engineers. But we don't have specific kinds of parts that we measure all the time. We also use this equipment to measure anything and everything that our engineering students might cook up for their various design projects anywhere else in the curriculum.

Two, this money needs to be spent by May or it's gone.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

Thanks!

F35Machinist · Tuesday at 2:26 AM

Here is what I would get:

Granite surface plate (whatever size works for your space)
6" mitutoyo calipers
0-1, 1-2, 2-3 micrometers
depth mic
unimic
interapid dial test indicators
Pin gage sets by half thou increments up to 1 inch both + and - tolerances (this covers most sizes and is a lot cheaper than deltronic pins by tenth increments which cost like 100k for a library)
A2 Jo block set grade 0
Common metric and imperial thread go/no go gages
Tesahite electronic height gage with various tooling
vidmar cabinets to hold and organize these instruments along with a tabletop of your choice
sine bar
a few sets of 123 blocks
v blocks
stereo microscope with light and swivel arm
optical comparator mitutoyo ph351 with data 200 DRO (this blows your budget at 14k, but you should get it anyway)
surface roughness gage of your choice

That is what I would consider bare minimum for what you are trying to achieve. You are almost there with the budget. Maybe 30k all in, with a huge chunk going to the optical comparator. The rest is pretty cheap. Good luck.

75sv1 · Tuesday at 6:18 AM

It depends on what you plan to teach. If surface finish in in the plans, then at least the cheap hand held ones, to start. I'd reach out to Zeiss, Hexagon and possibly Metrologic for simulator software for CMMs. I'd also contact regional manufacturing for their used equipment. I'd be interested in what you have for a curriculum.

Edit: I'd also ask around about a Granite Surface plate. Many places have them sitting around. More for tables to collect parts and such. Yes, they are still needed. But Free is better than $$.

Comatose · Tuesday at 9:44 AM

Is this a "teaching" lab or a "using" lab?

If it's a teaching lab, then spend a couple hundred bucks on the cheapest measuring tools known to man, in addition to whatever else the consensus is. For engineering students, the most important things to learn, IMHO, are

1) what measuring tools there are
2) what are the strengths of each tool
3) what are the weaknesses and limitations of each tool
4) why

That's not to say "teach them to shit on any tool other than a $100,000 laser interferometer" but "Here's how to check a micrometer, and here's why" is super important. "$30 12" digital calipers are fantastic if the alternative is a tape measure. Less so if you need bearing bore."

If you can get the engineering students coming out of the lab understanding how things are measured, what tool would be used, how to design things so they are actually easy to measure, and what those zeroes on a print actually mean, that would be an amazing service to every part the engineers will ever touch for the rest of their careers.

I know nobody touched on ANY of that when I was an engineering student.

Edit: If I'm dreaming, spend $3k of your budget on some standard reference parts. Something steel where you have ten or twenty or whatever a standard class size is. Make them with slightly different sizes on different features. Sizes that matter at different tolerances.

Like, via tape measure they're all 1" x 2" x 3"
Via calipers they range from .995" to 1.005" on one of the dimensions
Via mic they range from 1.998 to 2.001 on another
And so on.

dandrummerman21 · Tuesday at 10:28 AM

I just want to chime in regarding calipers, as suggested above were mitutoyo calipers. And you mentioned buying used.

Mitutoyo are great, that's what I'd get for calipers. But I suggest you buy basic (6 or 8") mitutoyo calipers brand new, not used, from a reputable distributor, NOT ebay, NOT even amazon.

Too many fakes. The chinese do a great job copying them to escape detection.

I'm sure the same can be said for all the good brands, starrett, interapid, etc. If the price for a new tool seems too good to be true, it is.

Now, mechanical micrometers? Get some good used ones, mitutoyo are again great. And most other tools can be had for great prices used on ebay. But seems too easy to get shitty fake calipers.

newtonsapple · Tuesday at 11:11 AM

Beyond basic hand tools, a granite surface plate, 24"x36" is a good size to start with. The digital height gages are essentially a single axis CMM. The advantage is their simplicity as you are up and running with most functions in 5 minutes. A precision angle block is very useful with these as you can often want clamp the part to it for inspection. Imagine a plate with a bunch of holes you need to confirm location of.

I do have a brand new Mahr height gage available, so I am not totally unbiased, but I think others will be supportive of this approach.

Mahr Federal 817 CLM Motorized Height Gage, 24"

This is a really nice brand new digital height gage. See below for details. Post here and PM me your contact information. Payment via check, electronic transfer, or cash. I can do Paypal as well, and will split the fee (half of 2.9%). Pickup or delivery possible in the Boston/North Shore area...

www.practicalmachinist.com

DanielG · Tuesday at 11:50 AM

Since this is a teaching lab, here's my list. On the big stuff, buy used, especially stuff like large surface plates. On many things, I'd get both mechanical and digital, so they learn how to read both

Granite surface plate
dial and digital 6" calipers
cheap vernier caliper. It's easier to show how a vernier works when it's linear rather than wrapped around a micrometer barrel
mechanical and digital mics
mag base
1" travel dial indicator
test indicator
stand for test indicator, then you can show how to sweep over a part to find flatness, high points, etc.
A small scraped cast iron square. This can act as both the square and a teaching piece to discuss scraping, what it is, and why it's still used.
V-blocks
123 blocks
set of gage blocks
set of gage pins, these are cheap used.
optical comparator (used)
plastic compound for molding the ID of parts and then looking at it on the comparator
hardness tester
hardness files
surface roughness sample plate. I would get this over a surface roughness gage. It's more important that the engineers have a feel for what the various surface finishes are, rather than knowing how to measure them accurately using a specific piece of equipment.
a telescoping bore gage
a good bore gage, so they can see why they don't want to use the telescoping one

For mics and calipers, I like SPI. They're inexpensive and decent quality. I wouldn't get Mitutoyo for student college lab. For big used stuff, put out feelers, you can often get an old CMM donated when a company replaces theirs.

Conrad Hoffman · Tuesday at 11:51 AM

Hopefully used, but try to have at least a couple examples of bore gauges. Bores are important and not everything can be pin gauged. Teach gauge R&R studies. (Daniel beat me to it!)

UtahTechFabLab · Tuesday at 12:34 PM

newtonsapple said:
Beyond basic hand tools, a granite surface plate, 24"x36" is a good size to start with. The digital height gages are essentially a single axis CMM. The advantage is their simplicity as you are up and running with most functions in 5 minutes. A precision angle block is very useful with these as you can often want clamp the part to it for inspection. Imagine a plate with a bunch of holes you need to confirm location of.

I do have a brand new Mahr height gage available, so I am not totally unbiased, but I think others will be supportive of this approach.

Mahr Federal 817 CLM Motorized Height Gage, 24"

This is a really nice brand new digital height gage. See below for details. Post here and PM me your contact information. Payment via check, electronic transfer, or cash. I can do Paypal as well, and will split the fee (half of 2.9%). Pickup or delivery possible in the Boston/North Shore area...

www.practicalmachinist.com

Hey There!

I'm interested... That is more than I was hoping to spend on a height gauge, but it's not out of the question especially if I can save some money on other things. Would you be able to contact me via e-mail? My information is on the faculty page at mech.utahtech.edu.

Thanks!
Andrew

newtonsapple · Tuesday at 1:11 PM

UtahTechFabLab said:
Hey There!

I'm interested... That is more than I was hoping to spend on a height gauge, but it's not out of the question especially if I can save some money on other things. Would you be able to contact me via e-mail? My information is on the faculty page at mech.utahtech.edu.

Thanks!
Andrew

Found you on the utahtech.edu site. I'll shoot you an email.

jccaclimber · 2023-01-18T22:52:17-0600

My undergrad had a CMM, they also had the usual hand tools. I learned next to nothing with the CMM, but quite a bit from the hand tools.

For general teaching purposes:
1. A granite table. If you have space, a 3' x4' table is great and you can set some stuff and a couple people around it. Get a 2' x 3' if you can't afford the space.
2. A vernier micrometer, used. Mostly to show people what it is. This will cost more to ship than the actual mic. if you're patient around here.
3. Cheap gage blocks. We're talking sub $300 for the set. Amazon/Shars quality. They're going to get abused and you're teaching concepts.
4. A couple decent Mitutoyo digital calipers. I'd say 6", 8", and 12". Buy these new, not used. If you want to get out a DMM and measure current consumption you can tell the real ones from fakes, but that's the only reliable way I know of.
5. Some cheap digital calipers, as in Harbor Freight cheap. They'll eat batteries, so get spares. These are the floaters. If they're all around and not beat up or lost in 6 months add some more of the Mits, but IME these are one of the most abused tools in a student shop, and also one of the most frequent to grow legs.
6. Some V-block pairs in 2 sizes, something small and something large. Get the straps for them too.
7. 1-2-3 blocks (cheapest ones on MSC are fine for these)
8. A couple 90 degree angle blocks.
9. A set of pin gages, either inch or metric.
10. A radius gage set. Used is fine. Those are cheap enough from a real brand name.
11. A height stand. Something manual with a hand crank on it. Used Mitutoyo models are everywhere. Be sure you get the scribe attachment and something to attach an indicator.
12. An indicator on a little granite base with a stem mount. McMaster Carr PN 8628A16 is really nice, though cheaper (and often somewhat poorly built) options are a fraction of the price.
13. A few test indicators. At least one for thousandths and one for tenths. Used or new. I've found the older BestTest and any age Interrapid to be nicer than the Mitutoyos for tenths indicators, for the basic 0.001" ones any name brand new or used is fine.
14. A surface gage and Noga arm for the indicators.
15. Those annoying little ID spring gages for bores.
16. A proper bore gage. Sunnens are the nicest, Mitutoyo costs less and is decent for occasional use, nearest half thou, etc.
17. I'd say a depth gage set, but in reality I've used mine maybe twice and there are plenty of ways to measure that with the stuff above.
18. Surface plate cleaner, Kimwipes, micrometer oil, and something to store them in. A lot of this stuff can be heavy, so I'd lean more toward used Lista and less toward new Craftsman, but if you don't mind stiff drawers anything will do. Just make sure the drawers have ball bearings.
19. An optical comparator. Doesn't need to be huge, but I will say they aren't all made equal. I recently got to use a newer Mitutoyo and it was an eye opening experience. I'm used to using comparators (even old nice Mits) in dark rooms and sort of squinting at the edges. This one was in a brightly lit room and super easy to see everything. Used is probably still fine, but ask on here about the model and be aware that you don't just pick one up, plop it down in your place, and expect it to work. The mirrors and $$ bulbs can be a bit touchy.
20. A sine bar or sine table.
21. A paper copy of ASME Y14.5-2019. Oh, and read it.

Now, if you have money left over you can get multiples of some of the above items, or add the following:
1. A full set of micrometers. Say 0 to 6" or whatever the common sets are.
2. Nice gage blocks. Something that's not going to rust (carbide, ceramic, whatever). I have a really nice Mitutoyo set, but sadly they are steel so gloves have to come out every time they do to avoid the occasional rusty fingerprint. If you're just teaching I'd stick with the cheap import set above and maybe 1-2 nice ones to show what they are. If you really want to split tenths then you'll want a nice set, but you don't want them in open circulation.
3. A motorized height gage. Personally I think this is a bit of overkill for what you want to do. That said, if you do want a motorized height gage, buy the one above, but not until after you've bought a manual one (used, they don't really go bad). I have that exact model (made until recently) and it's fantastic. For what he's charging you'd get one not nearly as nice anywhere else and there aren't many cheaper options. Note that it's the sort of thing that permanently lives on the granite table. It weighs 50 pounds and you have to (easily) secure the counterweight before use. Plan a few hundred dollars for extra styli depending on what comes with it. I have mine on a 2' x 3' granite table and find things a bit cramped. I've used it on a 3' x 4' and it's a non issue.
4. A CMM. If you want to teach CMM techs you'll need one of these. Honestly I've met a lot more people who can run the CMM software but have massive gaps in their basic understanding of fixturing and metrology than those who know metrology well and can't run a CMM.

UtahTechFabLab · 2023-01-18T23:00:46-0600

jccaclimber said:
My undergrad had a CMM, they also had the usual hand tools. I learned next to nothing with the CMM, but quite a bit from the hand tools.

For general teaching purposes:
1. A granite table. If you have space, a 3' x4' table is great and you can set some stuff and a couple people around it. Get a 2' x 3' if you can't afford the space.
2. A vernier micrometer, used. Mostly to show people what it is. This will cost more to ship than the actual mic. if you're patient around here.
3. Cheap gage blocks. We're talking sub $300 for the set. Amazon/Shars quality. They're going to get abused and you're teaching concepts.
4. A couple decent Mitutoyo digital calipers. I'd say 6", 8", and 12". Buy these new, not used. If you want to get out a DMM and measure current consumption you can tell the real ones from fakes, but that's the only reliable way I know of.
5. Some cheap digital calipers, as in Harbor Freight cheap. They'll eat batteries, so get spares. These are the floaters. If they're all around and not beat up or lost in 6 months add some more of the Mits, but IME these are one of the most abused tools in a student shop, and also one of the most frequent to grow legs.
6. Some V-block pairs in 2 sizes, something small and something large. Get the straps for them too.
7. 1-2-3 blocks (cheapest ones on MSC are fine for these)
8. A couple 90 degree angle blocks.
9. A set of pin gages, either inch or metric.
10. A radius gage set. Used is fine. Those are cheap enough from a real brand name.
11. A height stand. Something manual with a hand crank on it. Used Mitutoyo models are everywhere. Be sure you get the scribe attachment and something to attach an indicator.
12. An indicator on a little granite base with a stem mount. McMaster Carr PN 8628A16 is really nice, though cheaper (and often somewhat poorly built) options are a fraction of the price.
13. A few test indicators. At least one for thousandths and one for tenths. Used or new. I've found the older BestTest and any age Interrapid to be nicer than the Mitutoyos for tenths indicators, for the basic 0.001" ones any name brand new or used is fine.
14. A surface gage and Noga arm for the indicators.
15. Those annoying little ID spring gages for bores.
16. A proper bore gage. Sunnens are the nicest, Mitutoyo costs less and is decent for occasional use, nearest half thou, etc.
17. I'd say a depth gage set, but in reality I've used mine maybe twice and there are plenty of ways to measure that with the stuff above.
18. Surface plate cleaner, Kimwipes, micrometer oil, and something to store them in. A lot of this stuff can be heavy, so I'd lean more toward used Lista and less toward new Craftsman, but if you don't mind stiff drawers anything will do. Just make sure the drawers have ball bearings.
19. An optical comparator. Doesn't need to be huge, but I will say they aren't all made equal. I recently got to use a newer Mitutoyo and it was an eye opening experience. I'm used to using comparators (even old nice Mits) in dark rooms and sort of squinting at the edges. This one was in a brightly lit room and super easy to see everything. Used is probably still fine, but ask on here about the model and be aware that you don't just pick one up, plop it down in your place, and expect it to work. The mirrors and $$ bulbs can be a bit touchy.
20. A sine bar or sine table.
21. A paper copy of ASME Y14.5-2019. Oh, and read it.

Now, if you have money left over you can get multiples of some of the above items, or add the following:
1. A full set of micrometers. Say 0 to 6" or whatever the common sets are.
2. Nice gage blocks. Something that's not going to rust (carbide, ceramic, whatever). I have a really nice Mitutoyo set, but sadly they are steel so gloves have to come out every time they do to avoid the occasional rusty fingerprint. If you're just teaching I'd stick with the cheap import set above and maybe 1-2 nice ones to show what they are. If you really want to split tenths then you'll want a nice set, but you don't want them in open circulation.
3. A motorized height gage. Personally I think this is a bit of overkill for what you want to do. That said, if you do want a motorized height gage, buy the one above, but not until after you've bought a manual one (used, they don't really go bad). I have that exact model (made until recently) and it's fantastic. For what he's charging you'd get one not nearly as nice anywhere else and there aren't many cheaper options. Note that it's the sort of thing that permanently lives on the granite table. It weighs 50 pounds and you have to (easily) secure the counterweight before use. Plan a few hundred dollars for extra styli depending on what comes with it. I have mine on a 2' x 3' granite table and find things a bit cramped. I've used it on a 3' x 4' and it's a non issue.
4. A CMM. If you want to teach CMM techs you'll need one of these. Honestly I've met a lot more people who can run the CMM software but have massive gaps in their basic understanding of fixturing and metrology than those who know metrology well and can't run a CMM.

Wow! Thank you so much for all the thought you put into this my friend! Maybe I'll have to post a few pictures of our new space come July!

newtonsapple · 2023-01-18T23:17:35-0600

jccaclimber said:
My undergrad had a CMM, they also had the usual hand tools. I learned next to nothing with the CMM, but quite a bit from the hand tools.

Yeah, this is a great contribution.

I will dig through my excess stuff and see what on this list I can help with. I can at the very least point you towards good sources for a bunch of the items on the list as I agree with the vast majority of it.

I could likely arrange a calibrated/resurfaced 24"x36" plate with a stand to ship with the height gage for just the calibration cost if that made things make sense. We have pretty good access to used surface plates and resurfacing in the Northeast. This will be my first time having plates redone, but I have a very reasonable quote and have at least one that needs to be done.

Let me know if you at least got my email given I was hunting the .edu site. Not really concerned about sales or timing, I do this equipment stuff for fun and sometimes to finance fun. I am very sympathetic to what you are doing.

UtahTechFabLab · 2023-01-18T23:33:13-0600

newtonsapple said:
Yeah, this is a great contribution.

I will dig through my excess stuff and see what on this list I can help with. I can at the very least point you towards good sources for a bunch of the items on the list as I agree with the vast majority of it.

I could likely arrange a calibrated/resurfaced 24"x36" plate with a stand to ship with the height gage for just the calibration cost if that made things make sense. We have pretty good access to used surface plates and resurfacing in the Northeast. This will be my first time having plates redone, but I have a very reasonable quote and have at least one that needs to be done.

Let me know if you at least got my email given I was hunting the .edu site. Not really concerned about sales or timing, I do this equipment stuff for fun and sometimes to finance fun. I am very sympathetic to what you are doing.

Hey there,

I did get your email, and I'm definitely thinking about it. Especially because the Haimer presetter is about $24,000... I don't think any educational discount will bring that down to my level!

But thanks so much for your kindness! I'm so excited be getting some better equipment for our students, and anything helps! It pains me (daily) to have to walk them through a process and then also walk them through how to fight with poor quality equipment to get the results they need.

And I'll definitely think about the surface plate too. Right now we're using my personal one, but I have no idea what the accuracy is...

Thanks!

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