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Smallest thread size that can be EDM?

amchristophe

Plastic
Joined
Jul 5, 2022
I have a very odd job that requires a lot of very small threaded holes in a difficult material.

The smallest hole I need to tap in the part is a 2-56 STI thread .190 deep

Material Silicon Carbide Particle Reinforced 6061 Aluminum Alloy

I am not super familiar with EDM - I know that it is possible to burn threads into a part with the right machine, but is it possible to add threads that small?

Do any shops do this kind of work if its something that is possible? I've been getting nothing but "no quotes" and crickets from every local EDM shop. The one shop that did take the parts charged way too much and oversized all the minor diameters.

Thanks
 
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amchristophe

Plastic
Joined
Jul 5, 2022

implmex

Titanium
Joined
Jun 23, 2002
Location
Vancouver BC Canada
Hi amchristophe:
The problem is that you need to make the trode small enough that it can slip into the pre drilled hole.
It is then orbited out sideways to burn the threads.
So the trode is skinny...much smaller than a tap of equivalent nominal size.
The major diameter of the trode must be even smaller than the minor diameter of the thread so it can drop in the hole.
As the thread gets coarser the problem gets worse as the trode minor diameter gets so small the trode gets hard to make.

In addition, the trode will not survive to burn a complete thread.
Sinker trodes wear in the corners first and most aggressively.
This affects the major diameter and the area round it first and worst.

So you have three problems as a vendor:
1) you need to time the second trode so it sits in the same radial orientation as the first trode did.
There are ways to do that, but when the trode is tiny, it all gets harder.
2) you can't drop a thread gauge down the hole until all the trodes have been run.
If you screwed it up on the first burn you have to throw away the part, and you don't get to find that out until the last burn is done.
3) unless you have experience with the material, you have no idea if it will burn decently...some will, some won't.
This silicon carbide stabilized aluminum doesn't sound promising...remember, the material must be conductive to burn and so far as I know, silicon carbide is not electrically conductive...it is a semiconductor at best and in pure form, it is an electrical insulator.
I wouldn't dream of taking this on until I knew for sure it could actually be burned on the sinker with any kind of control.

Related to gauges and gauging; the EDM process leaves abrasive grit all over the part in the form of a fine sand-like substance suspended in dielectric oil...think lapping paste..
It's almost impossible to clean it perfectly while the part is in the work tank.
If you leave some behind, it will seize your thread gauge and jam it in the hole while fucking up both the hole and the gauge.

This is why nobody in their right mind wants to quote it...it's a much more challenging set of problems than is immediately apparent.

If somebody actually pulled off a 2-56 thread in this material...they get my respect for even trying.
If they missed a bit on the first kick at the can, you need to cut them some slack and have a conversation with them about how they can improve their process.
If they cost a lot...too damned bad...it's a hard job fraught with uncertainty and difficulty...I wouldn't touch it without a cost-plus contract and lots of time to play with it.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com
 

amchristophe

Plastic
Joined
Jul 5, 2022
Hi amchristophe:
The problem is that you need to make the trode small enough that it can slip into the pre drilled hole.
It is then orbited out sideways to burn the threads.
So the trode is skinny...much smaller than a tap of equivalent nominal size.
The major diameter of the trode must be even smaller than the minor diameter of the thread so it can drop in the hole.
As the thread gets coarser the problem gets worse as the trode minor diameter gets so small the trode gets hard to make.

In addition, the trode will not survive to burn a complete thread.
Sinker trodes wear in the corners first and most aggressively.
This affects the major diameter and the area round it first and worst.

So you have three problems as a vendor:
1) you need to time the second trode so it sits in the same radial orientation as the first trode did.
There are ways to do that, but when the trode is tiny, it all gets harder.
2) you can't drop a thread gauge down the hole until all the trodes have been run.
If you screwed it up on the first burn you have to throw away the part, and you don't get to find that out until the last burn is done.
3) unless you have experience with the material, you have no idea if it will burn decently...some will, some won't.
This silicon carbide stabilized aluminum doesn't sound promising...remember, the material must be conductive to burn and so far as I know, silicon carbide is not electrically conductive...it is a semiconductor at best and in pure form, it is an electrical insulator.
I wouldn't dream of taking this on until I knew for sure it could actually be burned on the sinker with any kind of control.

Related to gauges and gauging; the EDM process leaves abrasive grit all over the part in the form of a fine sand-like substance suspended in dielectric oil...think lapping paste..
It's almost impossible to clean it perfectly while the part is in the work tank.
If you leave some behind, it will seize your thread gauge and jam it in the hole while fucking up both the hole and the gauge.

This is why nobody in their right mind wants to quote it...it's a much more challenging set of problems than is immediately apparent.

If somebody actually pulled off a 2-56 thread in this material...they get my respect for even trying.
If they missed a bit on the first kick at the can, you need to cut them some slack and have a conversation with them about how they can improve their process.
If they cost a lot...too damned bad...it's a hard job fraught with uncertainty and difficulty...I wouldn't touch it without a cost-plus contract and lots of time to play with it.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

Thank you for the explanation Marcus,

This shines some more light onto why nobody wants to touch this part. Also there are 46 threaded holes per part lol

3) unless you have experience with the material, you have no idea if it will burn decently...some will, some won't.
This silicon carbide stabilized aluminum doesn't sound promising...remember, the material must be conductive to burn and so far as I know, silicon carbide is not electrically conductive...it is a semiconductor at best and in pure form, it is an electrical insulator.
I wouldn't dream of taking this on until I knew for sure it could actually be burned on the sinker with any kind of control.

We use a wire EDM to cut the outside profile of the part with no issue. Not sure if that means anything for sinker EDM. I have 0 experience with sinker
 

sfriedberg

Diamond
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Location
Oregon, USA
amchristophe, is there any chance of getting the design modified? I am think about things like pressing plugs of nicer material (straight 6061 comes to mind) into reamed holes, then putting the threads in the nicer material.
 

Nagol

Aluminum
Joined
May 21, 2020
Carmex has thread mills that size too if you just want to try another tool manufacturer before giving up entirely. They even have a whole line of them for hardcut claimed to be good up to 60RC and sized down to 0-80. Not really sure what the ideal coating for what you are dealing with is but something for tougher materials may be worth a shot.
 

RJT

Titanium
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Location
greensboro,northcarolina
What kind of speed could you get with the wire EDM compared to steel? If you can wire it with no problem compared to steel, I would think sinker EDM would react the same way. Waiting on my suppler to see if 2-56 STI electrodes are available. I agree with Marcus, this could be a real PITA. We have burned a lot of threads, but not in this material. We have also thread milled a lot of 6-32 in Nitronic 60, titanium, and high nickel alloys.
 
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implmex

Titanium
Joined
Jun 23, 2002
Location
Vancouver BC Canada
Hi RJT:
You wrote: " If you can wire it with no problem compared to steel, I would think sinker EDM would react the same way. "

My experience has been different...I have wired copper tungsten, nickel tungsten, niobium, titanium, copper, graphite, and all sorts of other weird stuff in my time.
At one point or another I have also tried to sinker many of these.
Success with the wire did not automatically mean success with the sinker.
I can speculate as to why that might be, but I really don't know: perhaps Bud Guitrau has some insight and will chime in.
It seems counter intuitive...you'd think the process is so similar to wire EDM that you could draw the obvious conclusion as you've done, but I've been there and burned my fingers more than once.
I'm a lot less confident now.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com
 

implmex

Titanium
Joined
Jun 23, 2002
Location
Vancouver BC Canada
Hi RJT:
I use a pathetically primitive CNC sinker...it's a Hansvedt MS4 Foreman from 1996.
From the control capability standpoint it's much closer to a manual sinker than to your machine.

So your point is well taken, but my principal difficulty with some of these exotics is that I can't make burn progress without reverse polarity and the resulting extreme electrode wear.
When I'm doing nothing more than hole popping or extremely simple burns I can gnaw my way through, but my ability to hit finishes or dimensions or geometric fidelity is a bad joke.

Would it be better with a better, more modern machine?...undoubtedly.
Would it be enough better to matter?...I'm not so sure.
So my note of caution is really nothing more than that...it's a warning to be sure the stuff will burn OK on your machine before committing to taking the job.

I've not been able to take the ability to wire a material as a reliable marker that I can also sinker it successfully.
Graphite and copper tungsten are great examples of that...I've wired both successfully but I have a hard time seeing anyone successfully sinkering either, since they are both common sinker electrode materials and are chosen for their burn resistance, at least in part.


Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com
 

RJT

Titanium
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Location
greensboro,northcarolina
I agree, there are plenty of unknowns with something like this. I may make an offer to do some testing if the customer sends me a sample scrap part and agrees to purchase the electrode material. That way I can learn something valuable and give an accurate quote. Our Mits EX8 is very capable CNC sinker, but by no means a machine with brand new technology. But we have done some extremely fine detail work on rotary print dies and lots of oddball stuff. This is my 50th year in the trade and I'm still learning.
 

implmex

Titanium
Joined
Jun 23, 2002
Location
Vancouver BC Canada
Hi again RJT:
You wrote "This is my 50th year in the trade and I'm still learning."

So I guess I'm just a young'un...only 47 years noodling about with fun toys making cool stuff...you will be forever more experienced than I will be.
Sounds like you love this trade for its challenges just like I do...let's make the bean counters and pencil pushers jealous as Hell! :D

It can be hair-tearingly frustrating at times, but when I compare my worst days as a toolbreaker against my best days as a dentist I'm happy I made the switch.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com
 

FeinMecanix

Plastic
Joined
May 8, 2020
Thanks for the tip, I ordered some to see how well they work with the material. Very impressive tools, excited to see how they do.
They are incredible tools. Manufactured with a laser. The guys are also very helpful and knowledgeable. Contact them, tell them what you want to do and see what they say!
 

M. Roberts

Aluminum
Joined
May 11, 2021
Hello. I second the opinion of 6C PCD Tools and their staff...definitely first class. I machine Al/SiC and SiC based ceramic composites, and they were able to machine the materials that I provided without issue, with crazy tool life and super high quality surface finishes. At best, I could get 60, M4 tapped holes, they stopped at 275 threaded holes....needless to say, a great improvement!!
 

RJT

Titanium
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Location
greensboro,northcarolina
Just got a quote back, they do make 2-56 STI tapping electrodes. $275. for 2 pcs Poco3 (probably enough to do 10-20 holes). So it can be done, but it won't be anywhere near as efficient as tapping or thread milling.
 








 
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